They are absolutely blank about it. Any person is not allowed to force nl on meteor day if lynching gives them a chance to win. Because NL= confirmed loss. This moderator does not understand the simple thing that he can't know for sure if the person being voted was town. If he wanted to lynch the other guy he should have convinced the other person to vote his way. He is not allowed to force NL and confirm the loss for both parties. Else town will just force NL by saying that 2 different people have 2 different fos. This was clearly resolved by the earlier by each admin. How could you let the new moderators handle this without him knowing the rules.
Just clarify if the moderators judgement is correct or not. If it is then you know what is allowed. It literally means that players are allowed to split votes on MYLO in a meteor.
What if the person getting lynched was mafia? This new moderator just looks at it from a rookie point of view. He is being biased towards the town win scenario. Since the person being voted was town he is saying he was allowed to force NL. He should look at it from a neutral point of view and should judge without knowing what alignment was being lynched.
The only reason town should be considered for game throwing in cases that mafia are too stupid to try and win by trying to hit the doc is not lynching during the day. They can gain another save and make mafia look like a**es for giving town another lynch.
deletedover 9 years
really not that difficult
deletedover 9 years
mafia might kill the cop; doctor's action can only end the game if successful. only one is absolute gamethrow
you are right that mods simply do not understand meteor, but they dont understand it because meteor system is broken, i have been saying this for years. every time GAI is comped discussions start about meteor, because it is broken.
meteor system has to be removed completely and recreated to guarantee nobody can force autoloss by negligence. it is not a hard task to create a logic for that, im not sure on the source code changes though, but that also should not be a hard task to change it.
deletedover 9 years
no they don't. whether cop dies or not is up to the doctor. how could they know? it's the doctor that hammers in the loss with his night-action that only serves as a loss-maker on meteor night.
because your proposed solution is an arbitrary rule that boils down to outlawing optimal pro-mafia mafia-play yet allowing intentional anti-town town-play
whether or not something is easy or difficult to mod isn't relevant. if the goal was easier reports, then we wouldn't even bother reading for intent and just create a "fake-claiming" rule
do you realise how freaking stupid most people are. Nobody has a brain, unless you tell them what's not gamethrowing, they won't know better. In a perfect world, what you're saying is true but this world aint damn perfect.
I'm giving you a damn solution that solves the issue, and what can you argue against it? From a mod's point of view, why do you do this to yourself? You realise how much easier it would be to mod meteors with this ruling? You reduce meteors as well so you don't get as many people complaining about wanting meteors refunded.
And from a player point of view? I can't see any disadvantages that would outweigh the advantages of such a rule change.
noobs will never understand. Just get pro mods. They will make the proper rules. I wonder why onuqz was ever mod. The worst part is that the game in this OP is still not given a violation. The mod says that person is not obliged to lynch on meteor.
it's fine for them, because like many other situations, it's an honest mistake, and they weren't aware. the problem i am tackling is not punishing honest mistakes, but creating awareness and stopping moderators from actively punishing mafia from playing optimally
the reverse also applies. if mafia is aware of a doctor's/town's misguidedness, they should be punished for actively killing someone they are certain will get saved. knowing the game will end but doing it anyway to make a point is just as bad (BUT NOT WORSE) than the doctor's actions if they are informed
deletedover 9 years
the mafia going for cop isn't in and of itself throwing. only the doc's action is in and of itself a throw. this isn't that difficult
I REPEAT, THE WIN CONDITION FOR MAFIA IS TO KILL PLAYERS WITHOUT PUTTING THEMSELVES INTO AUTOLOSS! KILLING AN UNCLEAR ISN'T PUTTING THEM INTO AUTOLOSS! THEREFORE, KILLING THAT PLAYER IS WHAT THEY ARE REQUIRED TO DO.
deletedover 9 years
dave is clearly right tbh. only the doc save absolutely throws the game. all it really amounts to is a potential loss injected into the night-phase by the doc.
deletedover 9 years
it is the doc save in and of itself that forces the meteor. the doc chooses a night action that cannot go through, but only end the game if successful; the mafia does not. the doc is entirely culpable if he saves to bring down meteor. hedger, ur wrong bro. there cannot be any other thought process behind the doc's save. his saving **only** offers the game up to a lose. let him wifom that he will be on the cop all he wants, but the second he is, he's throwing.
The third scenario is irrelevant to the situation because if that's the case, then they won't save (or they are legit throwing but that's not what I'm getting at). I'm talking about the people that don't exactly use that thought process in that situation.
I'm also not arguing that killing an unclear hurts mafia's win condition. But I think that when meteor is on day, then that's the disadvantage for town and mafia have the power to force the town to play in that sub-optimal situation. Thus I think when the meteor is on night, mafia have to take the disadvantage here. I think this is much easier as well since it's so hard to prove intent to gamethrow when as the current rules stand, each alignment can just blame the other for the reason the game went to meteor. Mafia say "well doc shouldn't have saved", doc says "well mafia should have killed for doc". The meteor gamethrow rules are in place to stop meteors from occurring right? Putting the onus on mafia here would reduce the amount of meteors in this situation.
Hedger already stated the 3 blue, Doc, Cop (any other form of clear), GF. Throwing away a clear is decreasing town's chances of winning by leaving out information of kills.
Here is other consideration, mafia's goal is just to be the last alive, it isn't to kill all prs (it just helps if they do). So attempting to kill a person that will never die with a doc isn't leading to their win condition. All trying to kill the clear is doing is annoying the town. Forcing meteor in most cases is conceding that they have no way to win, which is incorrect to assume in the case given. The meteor rule is the statement that mafia can only concede unless they kill a specific person, which is false in this case.
The definition of game throwing by forcing meteor states:
Mafia is not in autoloss by hitting a vt. Therefore, they have no reason for trying to hit someone who will be a doc save.
this is comparable to banning wobbling or chain grabs or planking in melee/brawl
if you really don't think these mechanics are fair, you should recognise that it's the fault of the game and arbitrarily banning these things (ESPECIALLY USING A ROLE GOVERNED BY INTENT) is nonsensical. people shouldn't be punished for playing optimally
you argue about "doc vs mafia" as if we are forced to weigh them against each other, which is "fair" and which one isn't, where one of them is forced to take the brunt of responsibility, and by doing so they can absolve themselves of blame.
it isn't the case. it just so happens to be that when presented 100% logically with analysis of all mechanics, it looks that way
if you look at each case individually, the logic clearly points to "doctor saving on meteor night loses the game for the doctor"
that's it. that's all that matters when doctor is concerned. whether or not the mafia are the gamethrowing type, the risk taking type, the safe-playing type, what was said by either alignment before the meteor night (be it true, untrue/bluffed), the final action that doctor can't discuss on the night that it happens, can never help their win condition and can only hurt it. this is not a matter of opinion, it is 100% fact
therefore, any mafia who recognises this are presented with the logic "if doctor saving is bad, they won't save, so there are no saves to fear when selecting the night kill"
and deciding that it is "fair" to ignore these mechanics based solely on your opinion is ridiculous
Meteor rules
