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Should hip-firing be GT?

GrudgeVote
about 10 years

This is not a complaint thread.

No mods have been injured in the making of this thread.

Parental discretion advised: contains gun violence.

I originally filed an appeal against Mist, mistakenly believing that hip-firing being GT was the precedent ruling. I had this mistaken assumption because the last time I was active on this site, that was the case.

It is now clear that my actual appeal is against the current precedent. Mist was merely basing the verdict on current precedent, and has made no mistake in handling the original report

To me this seems like a very black/white scenario. Shooting a gun for the sake of shooting a gun is a clear indication that you do not care about the outcome of the game. If you cared about the outcome of the game, you would try to shoot in such a way that benefits town.

The current precedent treats hip-firing as trolling. Is there any merit in this? Is someone who randomly fires a gun trying to antagonize anyone, or is it that they do not care about winning?

Helsinki has taken the bold stand against the current precedent, and I imagine that moderators are discussing this among themselves before the next vote is cast.

Lets help them make the right decision. >>>>>>>>>

Should hip-firing (shooting with no reads) be considered Game-throwing?
33
Yes
24
No
deletedabout 10 years

Aesop says

i don't know why hipfiring is so hard to be treated on a case by case basis like every other vio


because it's one of the few actions in the game in which one (town) person can drastically change the outcome of the game entirely on their own and without actually having to say anything or give an explanation for their behavior
deletedabout 10 years

helsinki says

it's one thing to be more lenient when it comes to red hearts; it's another thing entirely to make them subject to different rules. that's a case where the administration would be actively making the jump from red heart to competitive a lot harder on people


i really don't see the issue here. do you disagree that we should be encouraging people to take gold heart games more seriously? i don't think enforcing the rules a bit stricter makes the jump from gold hearts any worse; breaking a rule is breaking a rule, just because the punishment is different doesn't mean it's any more difficult to not friggin' hipfire.


Hibiki says

i cant see it working because it means cracking down on like, the majority of the site at this point.


i tried to write a reply to your wall of text bc i think it deserves one but i just started sounding like a rambly idiot so idk man. i need food or something. i promise im not always so stupid.



Devante says

I would honestly rather people get no vio for asking someone to claim then quickly shooting them if they claimed gs, than someone firing automatically into the day.


sorry im sleepy as **** and being super unclear rn. what i meant is if someone is a confirmed PR and you shoot them as town, not if they just claim and they have a CC or something.
deletedabout 10 years
all i've seen in this thread is people prove how stupid they can be, how can you seriously say i'm fine with grudge lynching being game throwing but hipfiring isn't .. it's literally in hindsight the exact same thing as a matter of fact it's a lot more justifiable to constitute grudge lynching as trolling than it is hipfiring to be trolling
Clair
about 10 years
update: polo is in fact still a mod and also posting wrong opinions
deletedabout 10 years

Togepi says


Renaldo says

helsinki's idea is good.

i like hipfire as its own vio too. It takes intent out of the question and makes it about the action (like copied mechs)


Here you are coming in with the really good ideas 9 pages too late.


god bless bronto for coming up with that idea all on his own. what a swell guy.
deletedabout 10 years

Pyre says

It should be trolling, and obviously can be upgraded to GT (because that's the more important vio) if other factors like grudgelynching or generally not caring about winning are present. I don't really get what ppl who say it's somewhere between trolling and GT are talking about.


jesus christ you're wrong lol

if you can say hipfiring isn't gamethroing because it can result in the person being mafia...

isn't that the exact same thing with grudge lynching??
deletedabout 10 years

Pyre says

It should be trolling, and obviously can be upgraded to GT (because that's the more important vio) if other factors like grudgelynching or generally not caring about winning are present. I don't really get what ppl who say it's somewhere between trolling and GT are talking about.


its rpetty sick how ive now posted the argument in 3 places and you haven't been able to refute a single point i've made
Aesop
about 10 years
hipfiring was only trolling in red heart games and when a mod felt like being really lenient, and that was OK
Orly
about 10 years
and for reasons listed above, no, hipfiring should not be its own vio.
Clair
about 10 years
hipfiring being trolling was never correct by any stretch of the imagination other than "lucid said less harsh. ppl view trolling as lesser GT and it fits some other criteria that i think bill mentioned or something. either way, the only reason to let it slide ever was "well lucid said so"

editL when i say hipfire i mean shooting out the gate with no reads
Orly
about 10 years
the issue is actually that hipfiring is a term used too broadly.

GT hipfiring = shooting with no reads, equivalent to a grudgeshot, because it has no bearing on the game itself, instead being done with no intent to win. no effort is present in a GT hipfire, and the shot is usually before speaking has happened

trolling hipfire = "i'm shooting the next person who says my name" or any other event in which the shot is conducted arbitrarily, without any direct relation to reads. a Trolling hipfire is a shot where reads are formed but dont seem relevant to the shot, and the player's behavior is noticeably antagonistic / not conducive to playing the game itself.

so trolling hipfires are basically valid when a player hipfires and is generally messing around intentionally (indicative of trolling)

whereas GT hipfire is narrowly defined as a shot on a player without having let any discussion occur. i cant think of any other instance besides this happening at the immediate start of the game.

hipfiring in general is not gamethrowing or trolling, if we are assuming the broad definition. in fact, it is a viable strategy for a number of gun setups, if we mean a shot without a claim done prior.

but the 2 scenarios discussed above are different from that. it's the muddling of the definition by people who want refunds that has caused this issue. it's frankly very obvious when hipfiring is a GT / troll, because the player is acting in that fashion regardless of the hipfire. in other words, it should never be a substantive indicator of a reportable player, but rather, key supporting evidence in the case made against general bad behavior in a game.
Aesop
about 10 years
i don't know why hipfiring is so hard to be treated on a case by case basis like every other vio
Clair
about 10 years

Pyre says

It should be trolling, and obviously can be upgraded to GT (because that's the more important vio) if other factors like grudgelynching or generally not caring about winning are present. I don't really get what ppl who say it's somewhere between trolling and GT are talking about.


*quickly checks to see if polo is still a mod to see if he has to justify not reading helsinki's wall-o-text before posting wrong opinions*
Togepi
about 10 years

Renaldo says

helsinki's idea is good.

i like hipfire as its own vio too. It takes intent out of the question and makes it about the action (like copied mechs)


Here you are coming in with the really good ideas 9 pages too late.
deletedabout 10 years
It should be trolling, and obviously can be upgraded to GT (because that's the more important vio) if other factors like grudgelynching or generally not caring about winning are present. I don't really get what ppl who say it's somewhere between trolling and GT are talking about.
vilden
about 10 years

Renaldo says

helsinki's idea is good.

i like hipfire as its own vio too. It takes intent out of the question and makes it about the action (like copied mechs)


that would /thread so I'm liking it
Clair
about 10 years
"i always subscribed to the argument" would have led to the exact same post without the "history lesson" so i don't really think that's what it is
vilden
about 10 years
I'm hip firing the out of OP
Renaldo
about 10 years
helsinki's idea is good.

i like hipfire as its own vio too. It takes intent out of the question and makes it about the action (like copied mechs)
deletedabout 10 years

Hibiki says

i guess i should come to expect that my walls o text arent worth anything these days. i cant tell if its just losing my ability to articulate, being wrong or never having value in the first place


people tune you out when you start with a history lesson dude
Hibiki
about 10 years
i guess i should come to expect that my walls o text arent worth anything these days. i cant tell if its just losing my ability to articulate, being wrong or never having value in the first place
GrudgeVote
about 10 years
Ooops caught-with-quotes.
deletedabout 10 years

mist says


Devante says


mist says

sorry i just woke up i'm having trouble coherently responding to this thread. i noticed the OP capitalized the M in my name. idk why i care so much about that. w/e

it's GT if it's a grudge or if someone is shooting someone that just claimed PR or something. but in that case it's not really hipfiring it's firing with a reason, just a negative, going against your wincon reason.


if u don't see how stupid that rule u just described is i'm shocked.
I would honestly rather people get no vio for asking someone to claim then quickly shooting them if they claimed gs, than someone firing automatically into the day.


i'm just explaining the rule as it is; ie it's not 100% trolling or GT even now.


GrudgeVote says

I TAKE IT BACK, MIST IS BAD


dude now you went ahead and capitalized my ENTIRE name. idek how to handle this. what'dido. ididn'tdoit.

honestly im pretty down with what's been said a few times in this thread already; make it more severe in gold hearts.


it's one thing to be more lenient when it comes to red hearts; it's another thing entirely to make them subject to different rules. that's a case where the administration would be actively making the jump from red heart to competitive a lot harder on people
deletedabout 10 years

Devante says


mist says

sorry i just woke up i'm having trouble coherently responding to this thread. i noticed the OP capitalized the M in my name. idk why i care so much about that. w/e

it's GT if it's a grudge or if someone is shooting someone that just claimed PR or something. but in that case it's not really hipfiring it's firing with a reason, just a negative, going against your wincon reason.


if u don't see how stupid that rule u just described is i'm shocked.
I would honestly rather people get no vio for asking someone to claim then quickly shooting them if they claimed gs, than someone firing automatically into the day.


i'm just explaining the rule as it is; ie it's not 100% trolling or GT even now.


GrudgeVote says

I TAKE IT BACK, MIST IS BAD


dude now you went ahead and capitalized my ENTIRE name. idek how to handle this. what'dido. ididn'tdoit.

honestly im pretty down with what's been said a few times in this thread already; make it more severe in gold hearts.
deletedabout 10 years

GrudgeVote says

WOW. helsinki, that was really well thought out. I appreciate your dedication to get to a definitive solution. I think that is a good idea. The only thing I would warn about is not to make shooting someone before they claim their role considered hip-firing in itself.

Most of the time its a good idea to ask them to claim, but when you have the word of God telling you that they are scum and you are getting blue-balls to go along with your itchy trigger finger... you should be allowed to prevent them from outting PR's by shooting first.


in some situations (ie a&d on day 2 with a dead cop) it's better to shoot without asking for a claim because it can protect your lone pr, which is why i don't really support the "you have to ask for a claim" rule