Epicmafia

Should hip-firing be GT?

over 9 years

This is not a complaint thread.

No mods have been injured in the making of this thread.

Parental discretion advised: contains gun violence.

I originally filed an appeal against Mist, mistakenly believing that hip-firing being GT was the precedent ruling. I had this mistaken assumption because the last time I was active on this site, that was the case.

It is now clear that my actual appeal is against the current precedent. Mist was merely basing the verdict on current precedent, and has made no mistake in handling the original report

To me this seems like a very black/white scenario. Shooting a gun for the sake of shooting a gun is a clear indication that you do not care about the outcome of the game. If you cared about the outcome of the game, you would try to shoot in such a way that benefits town.

The current precedent treats hip-firing as trolling. Is there any merit in this? Is someone who randomly fires a gun trying to antagonize anyone, or is it that they do not care about winning?

Helsinki has taken the bold stand against the current precedent, and I imagine that moderators are discussing this among themselves before the next vote is cast.

Lets help them make the right decision. >>>>>>>>>

Should hip-firing (shooting with no reads) be considered Game-throwing?

Yes

deletedover 9 years

Connor says

i don't understand how i can type "kill to shoot" when my brain clearly means "shoot to kill". how do i make a mistake like that. when did i start making mistakes like that

Anime.

Aesop

over 9 years

what we can all take out of this thread is Let's Play VDLI

deletedover 9 years

Aesop says

i think everyone here can agree that an immediate shot/grudge shot is gamethrowing

but people *don't* agree that an immediate shot is game throwing, which i don't understand at all but is still somehow a thing

there's absolutely nothing in the literal text of the trolling rule that says anything even remotely relating to hip firing and treating "hip firing as trolling" as a meta-rule that people are just supposed to know is ridiculous. at the very least the rule text needs to be changed if people don't want a separate violation

deletedover 9 years

so tell me connor, how do you determine as a moderator if someone is hipshotting by grudge or not?

Let's say Pranay joins a game and is shot by someone who he argues with a lot on the forums ect.
They didn't say anything about disliking pranay in that game, in pre game or after the shot.

Their defense now can be they're rolling the dice, so they get no violation then correct?

Hibiki

over 9 years

i don't want to muddy the thread any more with this argument devante but surely you can see the differences in what i'm outlining

Aesop

over 9 years

i think everyone is arguing for the same thing

Orly

over 9 years

grudgeshooting is also an entirely separate thing and should be considered alongside grudgevoting as GTing. intent, however, is fundamental in substantiating such a violation

Aesop

over 9 years

i think everyone here can agree that an immediate shot/grudge shot is gamethrowing

Hibiki

over 9 years

rolling the dice comes at the expense of the person you shot, yes. however, that is not the express purpose of shooting them, unlike a grudge lynch

deletedover 9 years

mist says

mist says

helsinki says

breaking the rules is equally serious regardless of the game

so how do we go about encouraging people to take a comp game more seriously than fancypants then?

actually you know what this is a stupid post.

I wish everyone who believes it's not gamethrowing would be as noble as you and admit they've made a plethora of stupid posts

Orly

over 9 years

the definition for hipfiring in the poll is "shoot with no reads"

that definition is lacking. say I shoot a player within 1 minute of the game starting. no one has claimed, no one knows i have a gun, but i'm deputy and i have a reasonable assumption of who cop is. about 7 lines of chat have gone by. i shoot and hit mafia.

that scenario is not gamethrowing, nor is it trolling, but if i had hit a blue like Grudgevote, they would assume i didnt have reads.

again, the problem is with the definition.

GT hipfire = shooting at start of game, 0 reads possible.

Trolling hipfire = making the gun a tool to antagonize others (e.g. 'game to survive the shot') or a questionable shot early on that is then reconciled alongside other trollish behavior in the game

other hipfiring = perfectly fine and a viable strategy in many gun setups

deletedover 9 years

Hibiki says

Devante says

and when you grudge lynch you're not trying to lose either... since the person you're grudge lynching can easily be mafia, it's not like you're going to grudge lynch the confirmed orc (Because it's impossible and town wouldn't allow it) but you're going to grudge lynch someone who claimed blue, or is in a cop cc.

they can still be mafia

when u grudge lynch ur playing to make that guy lose (regardless of alignment). which is just as bad, if not worse, than regularly throwing games against ur own side

"Intentionally playing against your win condition or not playing to win. "

Doesn't say anything about another person whose alignment you're not sure about.

When you hipshoot someone you're also playing to make them lose, regardless of alignment.

deletedover 9 years

mist says

helsinki says

breaking the rules is equally serious regardless of the game

so how do we go about encouraging people to take a comp game more seriously than fancypants then?

actually you know what this is a stupid post.

Hibiki

over 9 years

Devante says

and when you grudge lynch you're not trying to lose either... since the person you're grudge lynching can easily be mafia, it's not like you're going to grudge lynch the confirmed orc (Because it's impossible and town wouldn't allow it) but you're going to grudge lynch someone who claimed blue, or is in a cop cc.

they can still be mafia

when u grudge lynch ur playing to make that guy lose (regardless of alignment). which is just as bad, if not worse, than regularly throwing games against ur own side

deletedover 9 years

helsinki says

breaking the rules is equally serious regardless of the game

so how do we go about encouraging people to take a comp game more seriously than fancypants then?

deletedover 9 years

don't post maymay

maymay

over 9 years

It's trolling and gamethrowing. It deserves both violations.

deletedover 9 years

Polo says

@Helsinki I def talked to you about it a couple of days ago haha

the extent of that conversation was you showing up out of the blue and saying "yeah i disagree we'll talk about it later" and then you didn't read anything i said

deletedover 9 years

and when you grudge lynch you're not trying to lose either... since the person you're grudge lynching can easily be mafia, it's not like you're going to grudge lynch the confirmed orc (Because it's impossible and town wouldn't allow it) but you're going to grudge lynch someone who claimed blue, or is in a cop cc.

they can still be mafia

Clair

over 9 years

i don't understand how i can type "kill to shoot" when my brain clearly means "shoot to kill". how do i make a mistake like that. when did i start making mistakes like that

Polo

over 9 years

@Helsinki I def talked to you about it a couple of days ago haha, whether or not you think I "refuted your points".

Clair

over 9 years

Devante says

all i've seen in this thread is people prove how stupid they can be, how can you seriously say i'm fine with grudge lynching being game throwing but hipfiring isn't .. it's literally in hindsight the exact same thing as a matter of fact it's a lot more justifiable to constitute grudge lynching as trolling than it is hipfiring to be trolling

sometimes u dont shoot to kill a specific guy. sometimes u just kill to shoot any guy and hope theyre mafia (rolling the dice). that's the key difference. when u roll the dice, ur not trying to lose

Togepi

over 9 years

helsinki says

Togepi says

Renaldo says

helsinki's idea is good.

i like hipfire as its own vio too. It takes intent out of the question and makes it about the action (like copied mechs)

Here you are coming in with the really good ideas 9 pages too late.

god bless bronto for coming up with that idea all on his own. what a swell guy.

Yeah it's totally fresh and new. I don't get why he isn't a mod.

deletedover 9 years

gdi so many posts in the time it took me to write that im responding to stuff from pages ago like a friggin' hack

deletedover 9 years

mist says

helsinki says

it's one thing to be more lenient when it comes to red hearts; it's another thing entirely to make them subject to different rules. that's a case where the administration would be actively making the jump from red heart to competitive a lot harder on people

i really don't see the issue here. do you disagree that we should be encouraging people to take gold heart games more seriously? i don't think enforcing the rules a bit stricter makes the jump from gold hearts any worse; breaking a rule is breaking a rule, just because the punishment is different doesn't mean it's any more difficult to not friggin' hipfire.

Hibiki says

i cant see it working because it means cracking down on like, the majority of the site at this point.

i tried to write a reply to your wall of text bc i think it deserves one but i just started sounding like a rambly idiot so idk man. i need food or something. i promise im not always so stupid.

Devante says

I would honestly rather people get no vio for asking someone to claim then quickly shooting them if they claimed gs, than someone firing automatically into the day.

sorry im sleepy as **** and being super unclear rn. what i meant is if someone is a confirmed PR and you shoot them as town, not if they just claim and they have a CC or something.

breaking the rules is equally serious regardless of the game