can we do this? gunsmith has been around for years and there has never been an objectively good gun setup, and thats because guns are horrible for competitive. Giving one person the ability to remove another from the game is a terrible idea for competitions and is ridiculously easy to throw games/troll with. Yeah, guns are fun but fun has never been the #1 priority for the competition and variety has never been a factor when deciding to ban the dozens of roles and setups that arent allowed to be made competitive.
The entire purpose of competition is to appeal to the competitive nature of people. Competitiveness is bigger priority than "fun", as being competitive is fun.
deletedalmost 10 years
assuming its going into a 3 way lylo, id probably be dead at that point in the game.
Well perhaps if you were a better player you'd had convinced them to gun you instead.
You can always play non-gun setups if it bothers you
deletedalmost 10 years
ha, hahahaha, haha..
deletedalmost 10 years
1) Assuming you're also including Sheriff/Deputy, I'd like to say there are more than 3 setups involving someone with a gun. Pretty sure a game of VDLI takes longer than Hollywood Illusions, You could say with the site meta right now, quickness isn't nearly as grave a reason to straight up ban guns in the competition.
2) I'm assuming ML because you have gunsmiths and sheriff/deputy roles guaranteed a gun on d1 w ml, where the gun is more powerful than a vote. I'd like to say once we get to a lylo situation, the gun eventually becomes irrelevant. I'd also like to point out that gun setups usually end up having far less amount of content than regular setups because people are far more mech reliant than they are on content.
3) Well, yeah. Convincing the entire town is a better skill to possess and a better indicator of ability of manipulation its free of bias/meta etc since you can't have a abuse meta with every single person in the game. You cannot say the same for the former skill set.
or rather, it's fun to succeed in a competitive environment. it doesn't have to perfect, until whatever it is they want to cry about makes them lose (i.e. guns)
no. fun is always the priority in competition. it's just that fun for competitive people is succeeding in a perfectly competitive environment
deletedalmost 10 years
fun has never been a priority in the competition whether you like it or not, if it was i would be allowed to run on gallis hunter. if thats to change then that'd be another issue
deletedalmost 10 years
its cringeworthy every time a 3 way lylo is made void because the gunsmith gunned a mafia and died, or in fancy pants gunsmith guns mafia n1 and nls day 1 without saying anything, losing the game. guns put too much power into one persons hand and are way too swingy to be good for competitive.
1) I see what you're saying there. Gun setups are shorter than normal setups of the same size, but not all gun setups are short. There's 3 mafia setups that have guns and they will obviously take longer than VDLI, yet people still play them so I do not see the quickness as a reason at all, it's a consequence of having guns.
2) One person misvoting is the same in lylo actually. I guess not if you have a ML, but that's not the situation I was exactly referring at
3) You're wrong 100%. It's a different skill, one that is more powerful assuming you had time to individually convince everyone. However epicmafia has a time limit which is why people have more use of general persuasion here. But you can't say that one is more relevant to mafia in general. Gun setups allow you to use that skill more often, as do smaller games. The bigger the game, the more you will have to resort to the other, but you need both. If you're better at one, you'll naturally prefer either big or small setups gun or no gun etc, but like I said, different skills
Not if it diverts the focus off of competitiveness.
deletedalmost 10 years
1) Gun setups are quicker since a day can lead to a couple of deaths rather than one singular lynch everyday. The townies and mafia don't have the same amount of power over one singular day as the person holding the gun does since they get to end end someones game during the day w/o hesitation of being scumread (looking at sheriff/dep)
2) One person misvoting isn't nearly as bad as one dumb townie with a gun, this leads to a number of bad results (i.e shooting of town, getting lynched for shooting town). You could argue that this same thing could go for votes during a game but you need to realize that a shot isn't the same thing as a vote, a shot during a day is far more powerful since you're pretty much getting the chance to take out one person from the game based on your and your read alone.
3) Being able to convince more than one person is a better indicator of skill than being able to convince one person who holds all the power to a shot. Meta abuse has a far more negative effect here as someone w a gun automatically eliminates someone who's got meta over them or vice versa. I would agree that meta abuse would be pretty irrelevant except for the fact that, and I've been re-iterating this, a gun is far more powerful than a vote during a game.
A/D was blacklisted for reasons "supposedly" different and completely irrelevant to the gun issue, hence it shouldn't be mentioned at all.
Balanced fun setups should not get any special treatment and should be able to be comped as normal. People aren't forced to play them, they can play VDLI TEO jan2.0 and all those setups that are always available
1) I don't agree gun setups are quicker. That at the very least is not a reason why I play gun setups (FYI I don't particularly love them, though I do like playing them here and there). Also, that person does not have absolute control over the game, that's a common misconception. Since mafia is after all about manipulation, the townies and mafia have just as much control over the game. Imagine that it's lylo instead and the person that would have the gun is the one with the hammer. You don't say that they have absolute control there, it's all about convincing that person in a situation that is much like as if they had a gun.
2) Disagreed there. One misvote ends the game in a normal setup. Even if one person is wrong , or even if a couple are, the person with the gun can still salvage the game. At worst, the impact of a bad townie is identical, but I do think it's easier to deal with people that are barely talking or not helping scumhunt since you can more easily scumhunt without them when you don't have to also convince them to vote .
3) I don't understand your point there. Being able to manipulate one person is a different skill than a crowd. It's much easier to use ate or things that you know will get them thinking. Meta abuse is pretty irrelevant since it happens no matter what type of game
deletedalmost 10 years
If A&D were to be unblacklisted, there should be a limit on how many times it (and variants) can be comped every "x" number of rounds.
Eg. Once every 10 rounds etc.
deletedalmost 10 years
Well there's a reason it's competitive mafia, because it focuses on competitiveness.
