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Deleting Competitive Lobby

Steven
over 10 years

First off, for those of you that do not know me, I am a player from the competitive lobby. I am posting this here because I already know what the competitive players will say, and I think the only way lucid or the mods will do anything is if they see the approval of training lobby because as it is you guys are indeed the ground that EpicMafia stands on.

Even though I say I am from Competitive, I really do think that by saying that it is like poison, because the current train of thought in training lobby is that all or most players there are rude jerks that are mean to everyone in and out of game, and I'm sure that you all have tested that theory already and seen it be true with your own eyes. I won't be arguing whether or not you're right; however, while I do think we have our share of nice and mean people it doesn't feel that much more than other lobbies. Rather, it's more like training lobby players feel it's more because they're looking out for it. Or maybe I'm just used to it. Regardless, that's not what this is about.

This will be a /really big thread/. You have been warned.

You might have noticed that the admins want to return training lobby to what it was meant to be: a "transition" lobby that trained players for competitive play. Back in EM 2.0, when there was only one lobby, competitive play dominated the site. There were barely any ranked games at all, it was competitive and unranked. Ranked games were only used to test setups, as far as I remember. When multiple lobbies were introduced, there were 3 "competitive" lobbies and sandbox, and people just moved up in points trying to get up to the "better" lobbies. After a while we realized the site didn't have enough people for this so we simplified it to two lobbies: competitive and training.

Now we are here and it is very clear that training has evolved into something completely different. It is. Quite simply, a place to play ranked games, and rather than be full of new players, it has it's own vets and all. It has become very independent from the other lobbies. This isn't a bad thing in itself, as if that's what the site wants and it gets more traffic to the site in the future, then there's nothing wrong with that. Training, or rather, red hearts, have gained popularity now and are something lots of players enjoy in simple setups where there is not that much need to concentrate on scumhunting. Simply put: there's a lot of players that have opted out for a middle ground between unranked games and competitive play, playing "relaxed" games that don't have the chaos from unranked but that don't need to be invested in with time/effort. And sure, that's great! I enjoy playing red heart games ever so often too, and in comp lobby we even made "gallis hunter" legal in weekends, which is actually a rather fun setup.

The problem however is that the only way for people to get to competitive lobby is through points and therefore training. There is no shortage of players in competitive yet, but the lobby is not growing as it should and maybe in 5 years it will die out by itself, who knows. Lots of competitive players are upset because training's attitude towards competitive lobby will inherently deter the newer players from joining. After all, if the people they play with hate competitive so much, it is only natural to be scared of competitive play. I'm not saying everyone should like to play competitively: there are many of you, I'm sure, who decided not to join the training competition, or at least not play a lot of gold heart games. At the same time, there are a few who must have tried it out and maybe some who enjoyed it, and yet you remained in training lobby because that is the community you like and associate with.

I just think that this us vs them between comp and training lobbies really needs to be put a stop to, and there seems to be no way to do so. Because training is the lobby you start in, this will definitely mean that competitive will always be "dying out" (in quotes because I really doubt it will actually die any time soon, but the feeling that new players aren't coming will remain), which is why competitive is so concerned.

And the solution to this is to completely kill competitive lobby. I really mean it: outright delete it. To compensate, the training competition would be brought back (I don't think any of you would have a problem with that since it was fine before) and, if possible, a point requirement would be placed for joining the competition instead.

You might be thinking: isn't that the same as having two lobbies, just that, well, in the same one, since competitive players will migrate to the training competition most likely? Well, yes and no. It is true that most competitive players will move to training afterwards (which would likely be renamed into main lobby or something) but they are indeed a small number compared to training players, so training would vastly outnumber competitive. Furthermore, the competition would have players from both lobbies, basically meaning that it would eliminate the us vs them attitude because it would no longer be two communities but just one. People would play gold hearts if they want to, or they could just stick to playing red hearts. But the focus wouldn't be in either one, it would be more or less balanced.

There's some of you that outright just do not want players from competitive playing in your games because of many reasons, whether it be gold or red, but trust me, you don't have to pass a mean test to get to comp, most of us do not care at all, just like you, in red hearts and unranked games. The only reason we care is for our so very precious trophies (lol, quite silly right) but it's because man, it's literally 10 straight days of playing epicmafia for hours to play all your 5 hearts. If something happens after investing so much time it's natural to get frustrated. But you guys didn't have a problem with your own competition, and it would be under the same circumstances. I think a few moderators have reported there's actually more harassment reports in training, it's just that since those people are from your community you've learned to deal with them while you naturally prefer to stay out of trouble with us, which I guess is understandable.

Anyway, basically what the proposed change would do is:

Red hearts are exactly the same, with the rare comp player (who can already play with you guys if he wanted) maybe playing more often in those red hearts with you, but not having the pressure of the competition and therefore be like a completely different person at all (trust me, we /really/ don't care about red hearts nearly as much, probably we take them even less seriously than you). Basically, at worst, nothing happens differently . At best, you get to meet some new friends you otherwise might have not.

The competition is back. Woo. Now with a point requirement, however. You guys don't have to join it and can ignore the gold hearts. Maybe it's a worse competition than before because of us (really wouldn't be so IMO) but this isn't a valid complain because there's no competition in training now so nothing would be ruined. I guess the gold heart games could clutter the lobby, but this could be fixed with a filter for gold/red as an option. So at best you get a fun new competition, at worst you have to ignore a few games in the lobby

Those are for the current players: however, for the new players it would be like this: They are automatically exposed to players from "both lobbies" via the red hearts, so there will be people who like gold hearts and who don't playing with them, and they might learn some nice strategies from them even before they move to gold heart setups. In fact, it could be quite common for people that play in competitions to help new players out. At best, it would completely eliminate the community split and fix the influx of players back to normal and help in teaching the newbies the ropes. At worst, all players would still dislike gold heart games even in training lobby and the competition will eventually die off (which isn't really a problem for you guys anyway).

All this talk about point caps to force players into comp won't change anything at all but make them quit. Why would the 10k players from training be forced to play in a lobby they don't want with a lot of people they don't know? Comp lobby should be deleted instead so it is comp that has to migrate to training, because most comp lobby players not only are already familiar with training so the transition is easier, but the lobby is smaller so it is the way it should happen. Bringing back the competition is the smoothest way for this to happen nicely, with minimal possible damage. I don't think I missed anything that could go wrong but if any of you think I did feel free to post it in this thread. Really though, at worst this would be the same for you bad for us, at best good for everyone, so I don't see why training would be that much opposed to it. I sincerely believe that if we all work together you'll see that some of us (sadly not all, but surely a lot) aren't that bad. Hey, unless they really are super old, they were training before too!

I don't think anyone will read all of that sadly but it's a good way to organize my thoughts at least

Jasprar
over 10 years
SINGLE LOBBY SQUAD
deletedover 10 years
I support everything vigoroth said in the OP, though my only worry is whether lucid would be willing to make those changes.
TheVigil
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

In a way, yes. The main issue with the current Training Competition was that it took away players from the Comp Competition, and the low barrier to entry made it much easier for people to cheat. There was someone cheating almost every round in the Training round, and it was too difficult to moderate multiple competitions at once.

Basically, both lobbies would effectively "merge", with Training as the base lobby. So Comp Lobby would go away and add the comp to Training Lobby with a near barrier to entry (maybe 1500 points again?)

If the site has one "official" ranked lobby, it'll be much easier to moderate, allow for people to mingle, and make tables fill faster all around.


If this is the case i don't see why any training players should be against this as it changes nothing for our lobby except old Comp players will join us.

If anyone should have a problem with it its Comp players.
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
In a way, yes. The main issue with the current Training Competition was that it took away players from the Comp Competition, and the low barrier to entry made it much easier for people to cheat. There was someone cheating almost every round in the Training round, and it was too difficult to moderate multiple competitions at once. If the two competitions aren't competing with each other, having the one competition be in Training as opposed to Comp is the same thing, especially if everyone from Comp migrates to Training.

Basically, both lobbies would effectively "merge", with Training as the base lobby. So Comp Lobby would go away and add the comp to Training Lobby with a near barrier to entry (maybe 1500 points again?)

If the site has one "official" ranked lobby, it'll be much easier to moderate, allow for people to mingle, and make tables fill faster all around.

I also want to point out that the mod and mentor forums are both attached to the Comp forums, which is one of the reasons why we've been trying to get more Training people to move over. Comp has a better infrastructure set up, Training has more people.
TheVigil
over 10 years
So in the end this will work like a long term version of the training competition only the Comp lobby will be gone altogether?
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years

Smorlicious says

I like this situation. The only thing I might change to this solution is that I think we should still keep the 5-10 unranked games before you play red heart games for new players. I don't think newer players should get to be able to play red heart games off the bat. This will just flood red heart games with new players. It's not too much to ask we ask a new player to just play 5-10 quick games of unranked.




I agree, I think more unranked games would be really smart. 4 games isn't enough to have a good grasp on things unless you're the type to read strats and the wiki.
deletedover 10 years
I like this situation. The only thing I might change to this solution is that I think we should still keep the 5-10 unranked games before you play red heart games for new players. I don't think newer players should get to be able to play red heart games off the bat. This will just flood red heart games with new players. It's not too much to ask we ask a new player to just play 5-10 quick games of unranked.


Unless this wasn't going to be changed. I might have read that wrong.
hpthugcraft
over 10 years
I agree with dustmore wholeheartedly, and I think Steve hit the nail on the head when he said that red hearts are a nice middle ground. It's nice to play a serious game, but not so serious that you have to no-life it for trophies. Overall this is a really great idea and will likely improve the overall skill level of EM since there will be more mingling of old and new players, and more exposure to competitive set ups.
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
TheVigil; you'll only have to teach what your mentees want to learn. These proposed changes wouldn't really affect anything too heavily other than improving traffic in the lobby, more people playing competition, as well as new players getting more exposure/playtime with experienced players.

Steven is right, people will definitely be more inclined to try out competition and those setups if they see them right in front of them on the lobby page.

Lucid told me that building a system that allows for intra-lobby point requirements (ie a point requirement to enter comp) is feasible, so that means this idea could work.

Most likely though it'd be like living in a big city - people from different "groups" hang out in different areas (comp players in gold hearts, training players in reds) but having the exposure to the other and the option to explore what the others enjoy in that enclosed space helps with integration, exposure, and appreciation.

I'd probably play more red hearts if the lobby moved faster and if they were right in front of me, likewise I think the same could be said for comp games showing up in Training, with the comp community backing it and filling tables.
Steven
over 10 years
I think some of you /will/ join in on the competition after the deletion though, since your own competition finished more or less with some people playing, so I think the same people would play again. Those people have their own reasons for not joining comp (probably some being myths) and will most likely join again if comp is deleted. At least I think so.

If not, oh well, it will just be like before so no harm done
Jill
over 10 years
yeah, I guess

but going into specifics, there needs to be a better filter system built such like red heart/gold heart/unranked games only and restricting new users from playing until they've had enough experience from unranked, then red, then gold

uhh idk what else. something that would encourage new players to stay rather than be turned off because the current training player base isn't the most welcoming, which is kinda hypocritical of them as a whole to say competitive isn't. bringing in the more "serious" comp players into one lobby with training players who are very wary of noavis is pretty questionable but I digress
Steven
over 10 years

dustmote says

One thing that a lot of us Training Lobby veterans stick in the T lobby for is that we aren't interested in running for trophies. I mean, if you don't use your full allotment of gold hearts every day on very involved games, then you have no chance at winning the competition. In the comp lobby right now, it seems like there aren't many red heart games going on, and the way that a lot of us play, we just want to pick up a game or two now and again, rather than go on this hardcore streak all the time. That's a major reason that I don't play comp. If there were more players playing cool setups that weren't hardcore hate-you-for-eternity-for-screwing-up-my-run competition players, then I would play the comp lobby much more often.


Yep, I've seen a few players who agree with you. We actually /do/ want to play red hearts, but it's just really hard to fill anything up because since our player base is small, most people will be playing the gold heart games with no leftovers. So if comp lobby was deleted I'm sure I and others like me would play red hearts more because they would be more accessible (switching lobbies has always been too much of a hassle for me which is why I don't go for training red hearts). We can't just make red heart games for you guys to join without the players though, and so it's kind of circular where currently I don't see any way to fix this other than to just delete competitive as proposed
TheVigil
over 10 years

Trepur349 says

I've always thought I was better as town then maf, but my stats have always said otherwise.


As do mine. In my opinion my most breakthrough games were as maf though.
TheVigil
over 10 years

dustmote says

One thing that a lot of us Training Lobby veterans stick in the T lobby for is that we aren't interested in running for trophies. I mean, if you don't use your full allotment of gold hearts every day on very involved games, then you have no chance at winning the competition. In the comp lobby right now, it seems like there aren't many red heart games going on, and the way that a lot of us play, we just want to pick up a game or two now and again, rather than go on this hardcore streak all the time. That's a major reason that I don't play comp. If there were more players playing cool setups that weren't hardcore hate-you-for-eternity-for-screwing-up-my-run competition players, then I would play the comp lobby much more often.


We would still be able to play red heart game (Least we better). Gold heart games will just be mixed in.
Trepur349
over 10 years
I've always thought I was better as town then maf, but my stats have always said otherwise.
deletedover 10 years
One thing that a lot of us Training Lobby veterans stick in the T lobby for is that we aren't interested in running for trophies. I mean, if you don't use your full allotment of gold hearts every day on very involved games, then you have no chance at winning the competition. In the comp lobby right now, it seems like there aren't many red heart games going on, and the way that a lot of us play, we just want to pick up a game or two now and again, rather than go on this hardcore streak all the time. That's a major reason that I don't play comp. If there were more players playing cool setups that weren't hardcore hate-you-for-eternity-for-screwing-up-my-run competition players, then I would play the comp lobby much more often.
TheVigil
over 10 years

Steven says

I hate playing as mafia too though


Im actually better at maf than town most games..
Steven
over 10 years
I hate playing as mafia too though
TheVigil
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

Yeah, the competitive setups are way more enriching and challenge you much more. All of the current setups popular in training lobby give so little room for creativity as mafia, which is one of the biggest problems right now - everyone is averse to playing as mafia because it's so easy to lose as maf in Classic, Coco's, FP, FT3, etc.

Competitive quality setups are generally more balanced, allow more room for creativity in strategy, and are definitely more rewarding.


But Bronto, I want to just dominate Classic. All joking aside im going to have to brush up. If these changes happen im going to have to teach them or at least attempt to.
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
Yeah, the competitive setups are way more enriching and challenge you much more. All of the current setups popular in training lobby give so little room for creativity as mafia, which is one of the biggest problems right now - everyone is averse to playing as mafia because it's so easy to lose as maf in Classic, Coco's, FP, FT3, etc.

Competitive quality setups are generally more balanced, allow more room for creativity in strategy, and are definitely more rewarding.
TheVigil
over 10 years
Based on our in depth discussion earlier today. I believe this is the solution.
Steven
over 10 years
Yes, I forgot to mention that the competitive roles would naturally be given to training. That much should be given.

I also forgot to mention that, while a lot of training people say competitive games are not played because they are not fun, I do not believe that. There are certainly some people that won't find them fun but some new players will. In round 65, we offered tokens via announcements to the winners of a competition and it /permanently/ tripled the competitive player base. That means that double the number of the community back then actually realized they liked to play competitive AFTER they tried to go for the free tokens. A game or two might give a person the wrong impression, but of you genuinely try a round you can see why competitive is loved by some, I just don't think people will ever give it a chance when we have such a war between lobbies, or at least not many will
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
Great post, Steven. If Comp does get delisted by lucid, I think this is the best solution.

I'd have to re-enable some more roles, but having only one moderated lobby for game-related vios will make things much easier on the moderator end as well.

I'm hoping if this happens, old players will mingle and help out new players more. Maybe I'll actually be able to play a red heart of something like BV or Basic Logic when it's not comped.