people are using the same mentality for shooting a gun as lynching, it's absolutely impossible to make a competitively viable setup with guns, they promote trolling and gamethrowing, the power to instantly remove one person from the game is overbearing and this community can't handle it. furthermore, remove deputy, sniper and gunsmith from competitive lobby and training lobby. part of the problem is guns cause games to become trollish, fast-paced and lower effort which has leaked onto other games, guns probably should be banned from competitive lobby yes, guns are slowly killing competitive lobby. and by slowly, i mean someone get nikki on the phone and tell him to ban guns from competitive lobby. guns are becoming the new lynch, that'st he problem with most new setups. lynching is only ever for lylos now, and equivalent to set in stone absolutes, rather than placeholders for FOSes and reactions. it also encourages a chain of command that makes reading harder, hence why most gun setups end up being scumsided. not only do you run the risk of a *** pr, you also lose any valuable voting process and instead get SHOOT KYLE LOL a bunch. by replacing lynching for a ML with guns, you effectively neuter most competent setups and ruin any form of methodical strategy that could be employed.
guns shouldnt be in comp lobby.. plain and simple, they are either game breaking for town and make easy wins out of nothing or they give mafia a free win because the person with gun shoots. also , theres an entire rule dedicated to hipfiring with guns. guns give people an excuse to grudge lynch people without being able to be opposed. if youre pr with gun you have full control no matter how much town objects, which is just silly.
setup the best setup is what more setups should look like. both PRs shoudl optimally hide instead of claiming , PR claim d1 is the only bad thing about VDLI. if one of the power roles was squishy instead of hard to kill (doc is "squishy, bp is "hard to kill", etc") then it would be great , imo.
and i remember when people actually LIKED playing those scumhunt based setups,. they preferred it to gimmick ones. regardless of whether anyone thinks overall play is worse or better, the attitude people have towards scumhunt setups or scumhunting in general is worse now, which makes overall play worse as a result.
There was a glitch that gave certain people extra hearts, and those people went ahead and played them. We reset the round as a result of this.
It's on hold for now since we didn't reset it until about 10 minutes ago, so we're going to leave it paused past the reset so everyone gets a full 24 hours to play their hearts. (At least this is what I think we'll be doing, stay tuned if anything changes)
deletedover 10 years
no but it addresses the issue of lack of variety in chosen competitive setups.
there are hundreds of roles at this point so if people are more creative there can still be tons of variety without resorting to basic scumhunting setups. teo is a fun one still but nobody plays it anymore for some reason.
This wouldn't solve the overuse of gun setups though, but I get what you mean.
deletedover 10 years
that doesn't solve anything but it's still a start. if you want variety in setups, you could do what lucid used to do and make requirements for the setups, like "one setup this round must have fool"
deletedover 10 years
i don't like peoples setup choices being restricted on that level, i'd rather have it like even number rounds are allowed guns, odd number rounds are disallowed guns. it'd be simple and easier to keep track of only it might end up being unbalanced since the round numbers are completely random now.
Yeah, the other options are there but it doesn't mean they'll fill.
deletedover 10 years
Every 2-3 rounds Kyle could run (which is why this discussion was born: "I can't run, ban guns, please")
well that's absolutely false. i've been pushing a gun ban for months, and i only brought up that i was going to run because people brought up the silly argument 'you can play whatever you want'
1 - No guns 2 - 1 Gun Setup by each Winner / Guns Only 3 - Dawn Start 4 - Day 1 MYLO 5 - 10 Player 6 - No Reveal 7 - 8 Player 8 - Less Than 200 Plays 9 - Multi 10 - Player's Choice (within normal competitive guidelines)
Pretty similar to what you posted Pranay, but we could definitely combine our ideas.
This would actually be good because people can plan when they're going to run. For example, if I excel at dawnstart setups then I know to try and make time to run that round. This would also encourage diversity without being too restrictive. Albeit, this is still a restriction which has it's downsides as well.
This is a pretty cool idea, the only thing troubling is that people are motivated to run so they can comp something (To answer your question from earlier, I'd love to run again, but I have to work on other things now), so having people win and tell them what the "theme" for that round is isn't exactly fair. Unless we clearly plaster what the themed rounds would be and in what order they go in (make a regular cycle out of it and add/change things from it occasionally), then maybe it could work and be fair. This is something else we'd have to poll the community on.
Variety is something that's more or less something that should be encouraged, not forced upon.
I cant secondguess if I got a gun, which is freaking awesome
where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun where is the gun no gun no fun
When I think orc, I'm reminded of all the idiots that let themselves be ml'd because reveal. My favorite being one time an orc got ml and revealed doc.
Guns are not the problem, the players with the guns are. Trolls will be trolls, guns or not. It's like reverse mafia, it's a good setup, people just don't play it correctly. Banning guns would be an idiotic thing to do.
deletedover 10 years
I actually agree with option 2 in this scenario. Goodbar mentioned it earlier and it's the one that makes the most sense to cater to everyone's preference.
Again, I agree with TM, Pranay, Peta, Sims and the pro-guns.
In answer to Bronto (as for the temp ban):
IF you (and the mod team, etc) consider the guns in comp a problem, I think for a temp ban there's 2 ways:
1. a LONG TIME ban (say, 1 year), if you think guns are related to meta (but, then again, why would you want to change the meta? how would you decide if the meta created banning the guns is better or worse than this one?) to modify the meta, having less pr-reliance, etc. WHICH IS NOT SAID WILL WORK, because (at least for how I understood it) guns would only be banned from golden hearts, right? so people could still be "pr-reliant" in red hearts, playing the gun setups they love.
2. ban the gun-setups every 2-3 round, which would just give variety, not change meta or anything else, and everybody would be ok. Every 2-3 rounds Kyle could run (which is why this discussion was born: "I can't run, ban guns, please") and so people who don't like gun setups (or like the other types more) and we (the ones who like a bit of everything) would have variety.
The idea about the waiting time before the shoot is good too. But obviously it should be for ALL the guns, not only the one gave by a gs, or maf would have and advantage (if there's illu + gs in a setup, for example).
Greetings!
edit: going to work now.
deletedover 10 years
Concerning your mention of "Sheriff", don't you think that most PRs feel this way? BP/Orc in VDLI, Orc in Jan. Basically any uncontested PR that has longevity tends to act like this.
Your "day vig" example is a separate skill set to the game, it also gives mafia the chance to play their game accordingly to being TR'd by a GS.
When I think "day vig" I think "act blue until you've got a concrete fos, then blast it". When I think "sheriff" I think "game revolves around singular leader on power trip".
deletedover 10 years
As for those of you making cases regarding "scumhunting setups". BV, OT2R and B2NS, to name a few, are seldom opted for competition play. The most likely cases are 3 maf setups with similar mechanics to Janitorial 2.0.
PR outs -> PR is cc'd -> Mafs hide in blue or contest 2nd PR -> See it to lylo.
This is such a frequent way in which we see regular setups pan out. At least the guns give the game some diversity, if nothing else.
deletedover 10 years
5-10 rounds is far too long. If you were going to do this, it'd need to be 2 rounds at most.
Regardless, I actually agree with Pranay for once. The guns give the game alternative skill-set and I really don't think they should be removed at all. It should also be noted that Kyle's original post is basically just waffle and repetition, he literally has no leg to stand on.
There are cases to be made against guns, though, if people don't want to play gun setups then they aren't obliged to comp/run them. So even if you were to file up a list of negatives that have the majority over the positives, then abolishing them entirely is still pretty unfair to those of us who enjoy having guns in the setups we choose to play.
