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Newcomb's Paradox

deletedabout 9 years

Anyone who isn't a closed minded Neanderthal have an argument to make?

Complete idiots list:

Belovedprincess

Lilin

xxerox
about 9 years
Same for the turtle. As long as the Turtle is 2 and achiles is 1.
Monk
about 9 years

TheeCake says


xxerox says

Monk, you should read the paradox again.

As long as the turtle moves ahead, ahilles will never reach it.

Thats just it. In real life he passes it easy. We are talking about the turtle moving and achilles moving. Infinity is Infinity.


There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but they are all less than 3. Achilles can move an "infinite" amount of points in a finite amount of time.


What I'm saying is that that is wrong if the universe is NOT infinite and continuous, in time or space. If 1 planck is the smallest unit of space in our universe and indivisible, and 1 planck second the shortest amount of time, at some point there is not an infinite amount of points to be moved in 1 unit of time, and thus eventually Achilles would catch up.
TheeCake
about 9 years

xxerox says

Monk, you should read the paradox again.

As long as the turtle moves ahead, ahilles will never reach it.

Thats just it. In real life he passes it easy. We are talking about the turtle moving and achilles moving. Infinity is Infinity.


There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but they are all less than 3. Achilles can move an "infinite" amount of points in a finite amount of time.
deletedabout 9 years

belovedprincess says

i'll have a look at it. pretty sure i'm right tbh. u should really try not just waxing ur D' off famous names bro


It is not possible for it to be Friday from the very beginning, automatically. It is an established rule of the paradox
deletedabout 9 years
I am an ignorant ignoramus
deletedabout 9 years
i'll have a look at it. pretty sure i'm right tbh. u should really try not just waxing ur D' off famous names bro
xxerox
about 9 years
As long as he expectes to be lynched the next day, he will never be lynched xD
deletedabout 9 years

belovedprincess says

blablabla I'm a stupid dummy


You know I love you Sirius but you're making a fool of yourself here and I won't indulge you anymore. I already linked the analysis by MIT
deletedabout 9 years

Grim says

Everyone who tries to solve a paradox on the epicmafia forums gets added to the complete idiots list



belovedprincess says


Grim says


belovedprincess says

actually i got that one right too. the answer is in fact that forecasted expectation =/= actual expectation. on monday he doesn't know worth a damn if he'll be executed friday. it's only on thursday he can actually exclude friday.


He knows that the day can't possibly be Friday because it is the last possible day. Hypothetically, if he made it to Friday he would live, because it is not possible for him to be killed on Friday as according to the parameters of the paradox. Once you realize this, the same applies to Thursday. And so forth. The man is absolutely correct, but in solving the problem he ensures that it remains unsolvable. Paradox.


the problem lies in his exclusion bro. he's told he will be hanged during the week. that's expectation. then he's told that it'll happen on a day he doesn't expect. he'll expect the friday on thursday night. can't be the friday come thursday night. but on wednesday it can be either the thursday or the friday. there is no absolute expectation there, only forecasting. he can be killed any day but the friday and not have any absolute expectation of the day. the problem comes in in playing expectation in his being told he'll be hanged during the week against exact expectation of the day. one has to give way to the other. forecasted expectation of the exact day takes a back seat only to break the puzzle if it comes to thursday night


does this not fulfill all conditions bro? pretty sure it does. u can't think away the friday on a sunday night. the very act of trying to do so makes it a day u don't expect and one ur liable to be killed on. only on the thurday can u truly expect and exclude the friday. and if u can't exclude the friday until thursday, u can be killed any day before that
xxerox
about 9 years
Monk, you should read the paradox again.

As long as the turtle moves ahead, ahilles will never reach it.

Thats just it. In real life he passes it easy. We are talking about the turtle moving and achilles moving. Infinity is Infinity.
deletedabout 9 years

Monk says

But if there is a minimum unit of space, there is no such thing as "points" in the universe, if it isn't continous. If the universe is digital, it does actually solve Achilles' paradox. Add me to the idiots list if you must, but keep me separate from the ppl trying to solve (and fundamentally misunderstanding) the hanging man's paradox.


No, you're providing a rational philosophical argument, even if it does not solve the problem. That is different than trying to solve a paradox mathematically, which is akin to trying to fight a nuclear bomb with a large stone
Monk
about 9 years
But if there is a minimum unit of space, there is no such thing as "points" in the universe, if it isn't continous. If the universe is digital, it does actually solve Achilles' paradox. Add me to the idiots list if you must, but keep me separate from the ppl trying to solve (and fundamentally misunderstanding) the hanging man's paradox.
deletedabout 9 years
yeah but if they are moving at a constant speed, achilles won't slow down to let the turtle win

apply this to real life in a race
xxerox
about 9 years
turtle moves a little further, achilles moves a little further too, but at the same speed , and since the turtle has head start the turtle will always be 1 point in front of Achilles, and when achilles reaches that point, the turtle will be ahead with yet another points, for infinnity.
deletedabout 9 years
Everyone who tries to solve a paradox on the epicmafia forums gets added to the complete idiots list
xxerox
about 9 years

Monk says


xxerox says

This is exactly like the paradox with Achilles:

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 meters, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 meters, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 meters. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise


Isn't this one solved if there is a minimum, basic, finite unit of space (planck? High school kid here -.-) in the universe, that space isn't continous, so that at some point as the tortoise only moves 1 planck, at the same time Achilles moves 1 planck, and thus he eventually can overtake the tortoise as the movements cannot be divided any smaller until he moves a planck as the tortoise doesn't, etc.


true, but we are talking about the points, and they are infinity. Based on the paradox as long as there are points where the turtoise reaches, then there will be points that Achilles will reach too.
deletedabout 9 years
sure they are an infinite amount of points in time, but you don't even need this situation to assess that
deletedabout 9 years
if you give someone a headstart it is completely possible to beat them.

ok let me try and explain:

if turtle starts like:

100 -> 110 -> 111 -> 112

if Achilles starts like:

0 -> 100 -> 110 -> 120

if they are running at a constant speed always, by the time the turtle reaches 112, Achilles would be at 120
deletedabout 9 years

Grim says


belovedprincess says

actually i got that one right too. the answer is in fact that forecasted expectation =/= actual expectation. on monday he doesn't know worth a damn if he'll be executed friday. it's only on thursday he can actually exclude friday.


He knows that the day can't possibly be Friday because it is the last possible day. Hypothetically, if he made it to Friday he would live, because it is not possible for him to be killed on Friday as according to the parameters of the paradox. Once you realize this, the same applies to Thursday. And so forth. The man is absolutely correct, but in solving the problem he ensures that it remains unsolvable. Paradox.


the problem lies in his exclusion bro. he's told he will be hanged during the week. that's expectation. then he's told that it'll happen on a day he doesn't expect. he'll expect the friday on thursday night. can't be the friday come thursday night. but on wednesday it can be either the thursday or the friday. there is no absolute expectation there, only forecasting. he can be killed any day but the friday and not have any absolute expectation of the day. the problem comes in in playing expectation in his being told he'll be hanged during the week against exact expectation of the day. one has to give way to the other. forecasted expectation of the exact day takes a back seat only to break the puzzle if it comes to thursday night
Monk
about 9 years

xxerox says

This is exactly like the paradox with Achilles:

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 meters, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 meters, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 meters. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise


Isn't this one solved if there is a minimum, basic, finite unit of space (planck? High school kid here -.-) in the universe, that space isn't continous, so that at some point as the tortoise only moves 1 planck, at the same time Achilles moves 1 planck, and thus he eventually can overtake the tortoise as the movements cannot be divided any smaller until he moves a planck as the tortoise doesn't, etc.
xxerox
about 9 years
Like if you say you will be burned you will be drowned, if you say you are drowned you will be burned, but if you guess right , you will be free. So which will be, will you be burned or drowned?
projectmatt
about 9 years

xxerox says

This is exactly like the paradox with Achilles:

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 meters, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 meters, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 meters. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise


the obvious solution is that Achilles needs to stop being stupid and getting into races with tortoises
xxerox
about 9 years
Thats why its a parradox, dummy, and not a real life. Its about how you think about it, not how you do it.
deletedabout 9 years

lilin says

why would you call me a moron for solving what you told me, and not solving what you didn't show me


Well I didn't really expect anyone to be stupid enough to try and solve one of the most famous PARADOXES of all time on the epicmafia forums, so I didn't bother typing 3 paragraphs explaining the exact mathematical parameters. I typed up a "Hanging Man's Paradox For Dummies" and then you tried to solve it
deletedabout 9 years
xxerox, apply that situation to real life