Epicmafia

over 9 years

Rutab says

I think hipfiring would be fine if it just stayed under game throwing, because usually if you hipfire, you have no intent to win

even if you did have intent to win, you're not playing toward your win condition, and i dont know how you could argue that you were if you just hipfired

wrong: https://epicmafia.com/report/83573

deletedover 9 years

since when is something being sub-optimal violation worthy

deletedover 9 years

It's in-between trolling and gamethrow, basically.

Clair

over 9 years

gamethrowing can be defined is intentionally ensuring a specific person's loss with no care for your own win condition. shooting someone to make them lose if they're town or mafia is covered by that

deletedover 9 years

I think hipfiring would be fine if it just stayed under game throwing, because usually if you hipfire, you have no intent to win

even if you did have intent to win, you're not playing toward your win condition, and i dont know how you could argue that you were if you just hipfired

Renaldo

over 9 years

Rutab says

BiIIStickers says

hipfire shouldn't fall under trolling because it's a game defining action. it's like giving a trolling violation if a cop checks the same player 3 times in a row. his mechanical actions directly affected the game, and that's more than just a "troll", but not necessarily as severe as a gamethrow

Actually yeah I agree with this

Why would a hipfire be considered trolling again

because it could be considered disruptive and sub-optimal, but not necessarily playing against your win condition. It's a decent rule, but if we could be more specific, it'd be better.

Scumlord

over 9 years

because rutab, you would think if someone was a mod on this site they would have common sense and judge things objectively and have extensive knowledge of epicmafia.

"You were playing towards your win condition, don't hipfire though this is trolling" is a real headscratcher. I've been begging for people all round to change the meta on this setup. Town has a ML, an auto clear in sheriff, the best protective role in the game (blacksmith), and a cop who gets no false positives and yet somehow its still scum-sided. TOWN YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

deletedover 9 years

if gamethrowing is outright trying to lose the game for your own alignment, and trolling is something purely nonmechanical that involves your interaction with another player or players (which i think are both reasonable working definitions), then there should be something in between that handles mechanical issues that directly affect the game but aren't necessarily gamethrowing, which requires intent. hipfiring is absolutely one. if people understood meteor better, something like docsaving on meteor would be another.

deletedover 9 years

BiIIStickers says

hipfire shouldn't fall under trolling because it's a game defining action. it's like giving a trolling violation if a cop checks the same player 3 times in a row. his mechanical actions directly affected the game, and that's more than just a "troll", but not necessarily as severe as a gamethrow

Actually yeah I agree with this

Why would a hipfire be considered trolling again

deletedover 9 years

Steven says

BiIIStickers says

ah, instead of having the debate about whether someone trolled due to their lack of reads, we'll start having the debate about whether someone "hipfire violationed" due to their lack of reads

yeah, that's a paradigm shifter. we can't have that.

I'm just saying that because people use hipfire a lot more broadly than what the rules go against. I expect it to bring a lot more problems with the definition of hip firing.

But ok, I get it. You want me to stop posting. I'm out.

i'm fine with you being part of discussions if you're actually taking part in the listening end of the discussion too, which you seemed to finally start doing at the end there. i just don't want to be preached to by someone who's ignoring every word i say.

Renaldo

over 9 years

Connor says

honestly, i think the term "hipfire" being coined the way it was was a mistake. when the term was first used, it meant "insta-shooting". because it was shot as soon as you got the gun on day 2 of A&D

now it has all kinds of wacky meanings

which is in part why a rule that clearly redefines hipfiring into what it is would potentially be beneficial.

Scumlord

over 9 years

dont NL d1, find mafia lynch mafia. NLing gives mafia time to coordinate, plan claims, strategize. lynching day 1 mafia can cc their own partner on a pr claim due to not knowing who is scum. GAH dont NL d1 gahghaghgahghaghah

deletedover 9 years

How does a mafia violation make you lose hope for humanity

deletedover 9 years

hipfire shouldn't fall under trolling because it's a game defining action. it's like giving a trolling violation if a cop checks the same player 3 times in a row. his mechanical actions directly affected the game, and that's more than just a "troll", but not necessarily as severe as a gamethrow

Scumlord

over 9 years

alright i'm off life tilt at least some people see where i'm coming from i was losing hope for humanity. it is still a joke vio, i'm sure i didn't help my case by being so pissed off about it to jack + oliver so w/e moving on.

Steven

over 9 years

BiIIStickers says

ah, instead of having the debate about whether someone trolled due to their lack of reads, we'll start having the debate about whether someone "hipfire violationed" due to their lack of reads

yeah, that's a paradigm shifter. we can't have that.

I'm just saying that because people use hipfire a lot more broadly than what the rules go against. I expect it to bring a lot more problems with the definition of hip firing.

But ok, I get it. You want me to stop posting. I'm out.

blank

over 9 years

was i 2/3

deletedover 9 years

I think hipfiring should have a variable punishment, and that depending on the situation it could be given GT or trolling, but it doesn't need its own violation

Clair

over 9 years

honestly, i think the term "hipfire" being coined the way it was was a mistake. when the term was first used, it meant "insta-shooting". because it was shot as soon as you got the gun on day 2 of A&D

now it has all kinds of wacky meanings

Renaldo

over 9 years

with a hipfire rule, it would be more about the timing of the shot (early day with no reads vs. late day with arguable reads) rather than whether the person shot without reads as a means to troll, which i think opens up for people to shoot without asking for a claim, which could be beneficial.

deletedover 9 years

I cannot even fathom how this dude won multiple trophies

deletedover 9 years

Steven says

Renaldo says

BiIIStickers says

Renaldo says

BiIIStickers says

which is quite possibly the strongest argument in favor of it being wrong

his view was that it was unfair to suspend people for a full day for a hipfire / shooting without claims, which as seen here could be done while playing towards a win con.

then the logical solution is for hipfiring to be its own specific violation

hipfiring as it's own vio makes sense, let's push for it since we could probably make that happen.

Dumb IMO

It's not.

Scumlord

over 9 years

@Bill, i think sheriff should lead a lynch without asking for claims d1. PRs are only effective if they are hidden. An outted cop with hooker alive is as good as a blue pretty much.

deletedover 9 years

Steven says

Hipfiring can be trolling and it can be gamethrowing bill. It's gamethrowing if you had reads and went against them, trolling if you didn't have reads

going against your own reads is no different than grudge lynching, and would be treated the same way grudge lynching was

but hipfiring, by definition, is shooting without reads, and that shouldn't fall under the umbrella of trolling

Renaldo

over 9 years

BiIIStickers says

i know better than to attach my name to smart ideas because putting my name on them is grounds for immediate blackballing

ghost write it for me and I'll push it

Round 278 Discussion

Congratulations to the winners of Round 269!