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Round 278 Discussion

gennehfarrxD
over 9 years

Congratulations to the winners of Round 269!

shoot em up this setup is bad and Overturn 2 Riddler should not be played

Doubt Each Other (DEO) Stalk, Disguise & Sue Unto Caesar What vGAF 2.0 is His

Good luck to the participants of Round 278!

Join the competition!!

deletedover 9 years

Lashka says

Sure. But people will whine and scream hipfiring all the time if it's a rule of its own.

This userbase is full of whiny scroungy babies and you have to remember that. You can't overestimate how petulant people are, and the more they whine, and the more poor mods get calls wrong will combine to make the problem worse in the long run.


no more than they're already whining and screaming for gamethrowing or trolling in those exact same scenarios

this doesn't add anything to the toolkit of the scrounger
deletedover 9 years

Connor says

people learn bad habits from playing gun setups. those bad habits are practised in non-gun setups

not a difficult concept


This logic isn't really good... why not ban setups like fancy pants and classic then? People learn to brainlessly no-lynch

or why not ban any other setups that teaches stupid strategies, or any strategies at all

all strategies are different
deletedover 9 years
do you think we'd have nearly as strong of a "everyone selfvote, i'll hammer" mindset on this site if it wasn't for the way guns initially came about?

i'm not saying that's entirely true, but i don't really remember that being a thing so much in the Good Old Days. it was like a&d came around and then all of the sudden ling was demanding selfvotes during every game of vdli
Steven
over 9 years

Renaldo says

a hipfiring rule, if made, should

include
- shooting at day start before someone gets a chance to speak (especially on day 1)

not include
- shooting later in the day after everyone has spoken, even if claims aren't made yet.

The person with the gun ultimately has to decide when to use it, some people feel more confident in their reads early on and don't want to dawdle throughout the day. In some cases, shooting without asking for claims makes more sense as well (much like lynching without claims), and that shouldn't be punishable unless the person hasn't had an opportunity to speak.

You want to prevent people from taking others out of the game before they can participate at all, and you also want to prevent people from getting grudge-shot as well, all while encouraging the gun user to actually have a read before firing.


You don't need that person to speak at all. Reads based on PoE and reports are very possible
Sonrio
over 9 years
Oh hello refund
Scumlord
over 9 years
Lashka, I'm not sure I have faith that mods aren't brainless droids. I got a violation and a failed appeal for this . It's the lack of logic that angers me more than anything.
deletedover 9 years
Sure. But people will whine and scream hipfiring all the time if it's a rule of its own.

This userbase is full of whiny scroungy babies and you have to remember that. You can't overestimate how petulant people are, and the more they whine, and the more poor mods get calls wrong will combine to make the problem worse in the long run.
Clair
over 9 years
people learn bad habits from playing gun setups. those bad habits are practised in non-gun setups

not a difficult concept
deletedover 9 years
I mean, I agree that setups without guns are a lot better and more fun, but please explain
deletedover 9 years

Connor says


Rutab says


pits says

Guns should be removed from comp by virtue of indubitably ruining tyhe quality of play


Alternatively, don't play setups with guns


the bad play leaks into other setups. next


Elaborate please
deletedover 9 years

Lashka says

I know you don't - but that's the meta it will create.

Fakeclaiming wasn't intended to ban all wifom, but it ended up doing it.


fakeclaiming was a poor rule with regard to the spirit of the game, because there were always scenarios in which fakeclaiming was a positive

i don't think anyone can disagree with the statement that there are no positive situations in which someone shoots a gun for absolutely no reason
Clair
over 9 years

Rutab says


pits says

Guns should be removed from comp by virtue of indubitably ruining tyhe quality of play


Alternatively, don't play setups with guns


the bad play leaks into other setups. next
Steven
over 9 years

BiIIStickers says


Steven says

words. 2k characters


1) arguing that everyone who shoots early in the day doesnt care about winning is untrue
2) "not caring about winning" falls more under gamethrowing than trolling, seeing as trolling, as written, directly relates to your interaction with another player. in some circumstances you may care about the act of trolling more than winning, but that's a separate argument
3) hipfiring is the specific example being used here because of the prevalence of gun setups on the site, but in an ideal world i wouldn't have an issue with an all-purpose mechanics violation in place of a hipfiring one. unfortunately, many of the other game mechanics just arent widely understood enough on the site to be punishable in that way
4) the only way a hipfiring rule would result in more violations is if people who got hipfiring violations didn't learn from their previous hipfiring violations, and people that consistently break the same rule in spite of punishment are the ones we're trying to remove from the site anyway. anyone who cares about staying and cares about preserving the integrity of the game will learn from a single violation.


I didn't argue 1 at all, not everyone who shoots early is trolling, or as you said, not caring about winning. Those who care shouldn't be given violations IMO.

You're right, as the rules are defined it doesn't exactly fall into trolling, but it doesn't fall under game throwing either. Not caring about winning is not at all playing /against/ your win condition. I'd rather clarify the trolling rule than add not caring to the GT personally

OK but I still feel the same about that

Well, that depends really. You might scare people into not doing anything close to hipfiring but then again that's not what we want. If someone wants to shoot someone before they claim they shouldn't be scared because last time they got a violation for it if they think they are mafia
deletedover 9 years

pits says

Guns should be removed from comp by virtue of indubitably ruining tyhe quality of play


Alternatively, don't play setups with guns
Renaldo
over 9 years
yeah, hiding your reads as a clear unless you want to pass them on later in the game is probably a better way to go about it, especially with a gun and hidden PRs involved.

the way hipfiring gets interpreted now basically means that you have to publicly out your reads which could put you at a disadvantage if mafia were to fish a role.
deletedover 9 years
Guns should be removed from comp by virtue of indubitably ruining tyhe quality of play
deletedover 9 years
I know you don't - but that's the meta it will create.

Fakeclaiming wasn't intended to ban all wifom, but it ended up doing it.
deletedover 9 years
W0w ... it looks like Atikur flipped out over a red-heart game of Fancy Pants. After failing, more so
deletedover 9 years

Lashka says

More grey areas are good, not bad. It means mods have to think rather than be brainless droids. Which is (usually) good.

Fakeclaiming as a rule led to a massive change in the site meta around wifom that was pretty horrific though. Hipfiring as a rule will see all games where people don't give huge explanations before shooting get reported


you're not reading what me and bronto are saying then, because we both don't think an explanation is owed before a shot.
Renaldo
over 9 years

Lashka says

More grey areas are good, not bad. It means mods have to think rather than be brainless droids. Which is (usually) good.

Fakeclaiming as a rule led to a massive change in the site meta around wifom that was pretty horrific though. Hipfiring as a rule will see all games where people don't give huge explanations before shooting get reported


which is why you make it clear what constitutes a hipfire instead of people having to debate what actually is or isn't.
deletedover 9 years
regardless, this isn't a split of rules. hipfiring has already been split between trolling and gamethrowing, depending on the current climate and which mod takes the report. i just don't believe the as-written definitions cover it on either end, and while everyone posting itt might understand that hipfiring is violation worthy the players that are new to the site and/or don't read the forums shouldn't have any reason to believe hipfiring is violation worthy based on the current rule set.
deletedover 9 years
More grey areas are good, not bad. It means mods have to think rather than be brainless droids. Which is (usually) good.

Fakeclaiming as a rule led to a massive change in the site meta around wifom that was pretty horrific though. Hipfiring as a rule will see all games where people don't give huge explanations before shooting get reported
deletedover 9 years

Rutab says


BiIIStickers says

the thing is, what you would've done and what reads you had here aren't the issue, because ultimately YOU know that you had reads. no one else does unless you communicate them. sometimes communicating them is suboptimal within the confines of the game but necessary to avoid a violation, and that's a problem.


What do you define as communication? Usually people don't just shoot once their ready after being silent for the whole game. Most people at least try to scumhunt before they shoot. Asking someone for a claim before you shoot isn't the automatic "hey, he scumhunted, and now he wants to shoot". I think if you actively try to find the mafia and still shoot without claims, there's no way it was a hipfire

Also, if you can explain your reads as soon as you shoot, you can prove it wasn't a hipfire. Nobody really shoots without speaking to the town anyways, I think, but even in that situation it's easily provable


if i think you're scum, and i say "i think rutab;s scum, i'm going to shoot him" you're going to claim. which is potentially bad, depending on the role you're fishing.
Clair
over 9 years
no, i noticed. it's just not relevant
Renaldo
over 9 years
a hipfiring rule, if made, should

include
- shooting at day start before someone gets a chance to speak (especially on day 1)

not include
- shooting later in the day after everyone has spoken, even if claims aren't made yet.

The person with the gun ultimately has to decide when to use it, some people feel more confident in their reads early on and don't want to dawdle throughout the day. In some cases, shooting without asking for claims makes more sense as well (much like lynching without claims), and that shouldn't be punishable unless the person hasn't had an opportunity to speak.

You want to prevent people from taking others out of the game before they can participate at all, and you also want to prevent people from getting grudge-shot as well, all while encouraging the gun user to actually have a read before firing.