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Training Lobby Change Proposals

Bumpers
over 10 years

Hi training lobby. I haven’t properly introduced myself here but you’ll know TheBrontosaurus well as your lobby owner. One of the things we want to improve on EpicMafia considerably is the harmony and synergy of other lobbies, and give players old and new many different ventures on the site.

One of the stumbling blocks that we have is finding a way to keep training running the way it is, whilst also not making it exploited by point farming with new users who wish to play the game.

I’ve made a thread in competitive which I hope you take time to look at too which has more ideas that can make their way to this lobby, it can be found here.

https://epicmafia.com/topic/63209

So what are the ideas that we have for training?

1) Lobby rename

One issue that’s easy to notice with training is that it has lost its meaning for most of the players in this lobby. We don’t wish to splinter another lobby for new players only, but would like to rename it to something more appropriate. At the moment the leading name is Casual, but I realize that there is an online stigma behind this. If you can think of better names, please let us know.

2) 10K points cap

One of the problems with training is users using it to farm up points. There’s been a lot of aggressive suggestions on how to fix this, one method we had very long ago was forcing people to join comp lobby once they reached a certain threshold. We do not want that to happen again, but we also do not want point farming by playing with newer users.

What does this mean if implemented? It means that once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have. We think this is a generous amount to deter point-farming, but you are still fully free to play in the lobby unrestricted if you wish. Stats and other achievements will still be viable and tracked.

3) Greater input with moderators

One bias we notice is how most new moderators are picked from competitive. We realize that most mods have been picked from the comp lobby in the past, however we certainly want to embrace new variation when we look for new moderators in the certain future. If you’re ever interested in being one, feel free to PM an application for it to be reviewed.

Finishing notes

I realize this might look like a forced attempt to boost competitive player numbers. Partially, it is, but I hope you check out the comp thread too if you would like to see more information.There are news ideas in that thread that will be added to training too. Please give any feedback you have, thanks again.

EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
Because users aren't always right. ;)
TheVigil
over 10 years
I'm replying to your comment 'neither of the two is happening'.
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
I guess you could think of it as two high schools massively disliking each other, but when the students start to mingle with each other (by force or necessity) at college (and therein all identify themselves as one mass of college students), the animosity and 'cliques' disappear.
TheVigil
over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

I think Steven has absolutely highlighted the problem.


Steven says

nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality


I feel like it's very much a 'lobby wars' environment at the moment. As it is, the lobby you 'come from' defines you and you're identified as such. Someone may call you a 'training lobby noob' while another may call you a 'comp lobby jerk' (or similar name) - while neither is representative of the players in each lobby, the mere fact that the lobby you play in more regularly is used as some sort of slur is what's wrong at the moment.

I guess if we're all forced into the same lobby together, this would stop and we'd all be part of that lobby - we'd all be able to identify with each other as a 'main lobby user'. It may indeed break a few barriers.


I guess I just don't understand why there has to be a change if people stop playing Comp then so be it. What happened to the users always right?
Steven
over 10 years
I am talking about the deletion of comp lobby in regard to my posts
Steven
over 10 years
I didn't say anything about a comp cap though, I rejected that idea
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
Or sandbox would suddenly become extremely popular.
TheVigil
over 10 years

Steven says


thevigil says

Wouldn't that be the same as transferring training to comp though?


Neither of the two is happening.

I say "delete comp" because if I said anything about training every training player would panic and resist change. It is easier to look at it as deleting comp and bringing back the training competition, because it is in fact that. The competitive players will be forced to either accept the change or leave the site while the training players will have to be okay with the new competition having some players from competitive (hey, the players aren't a virus, we have nice and not so nice people, but if anything is a worry some competitive players did play in the training rounds before so it won't be much different than that, though there might be more people).

It really is more of a lobby merge with "training" being the dominant community now, but I prefer to call it deleting competitive. Once it happens, though, all it will be is one big lobby, nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality


If they implement the point cap then yes most of the training base will be forced to move to Comp. So yes that is whats happening.
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
I think Steven has absolutely highlighted the problem.


Steven says

nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality


I feel like it's very much a 'lobby wars' environment at the moment. As it is, the lobby you 'come from' defines you and you're identified as such. Someone may call you a 'training lobby noob' while another may call you a 'comp lobby jerk' (or similar name) - while neither is representative of the players in each lobby, the mere fact that the lobby you play in more regularly is used as some sort of slur is what's wrong at the moment.

I guess if we're all forced into the same lobby together, this would stop and we'd all be part of that lobby - we'd all be able to identify with each other as a 'main lobby user'. It may indeed break a few barriers.
Steven
over 10 years

SyphruM says


Steven says


SyphruM says


Steven says

I'll say it again. Delete comp, bring back training competitions to compensate with a point requirement to stop GT alts and cheating, no changes to the red hearts.


Unless different setups are comp'd, I don't believe this would solve much. If anything, comp games would take longer to fill due to there being many more games going on at once, getting each pushed further down the pages.


New players will try out the weird gold looking hearts ever so often (a filter between gold and red would be awesome for those who think the lobby will get cluttered too), and that's all we want, really. If they prefer the red heart games, they go back to that. But seeing a game open and having to change lobbies and communities to see that game open is a big difference


"New players" wouldn't be able to try out anything with a gold heart. That's the whole purpose of the point requirement. So again, if no one is playing the unranked/red heart versions of these comp setups currently -- which is already clear they aren't --, what is going to compel them to do so in the future? This all leads back to the same problem you describe, lack of exposure.


Yes and no.

Lack of exposure is a problem yes, but it is only one because training and comp have evolved into two different communities. If they are one and the same, people wouldn't have as much trouble trying out the training competition. They wouldn't be scared of the players, at the very least, which is what drives a lot of people away.
TheVigil
over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

Jupiter, I may have it wrong, but it sounds like you're tarring everyone who plays FP/classic with the same brush.

Not everyone plays those setups to pointfarm/for easy wins. Sometimes the simplicity of the mechs and the PR reliance makes for a gentle, quick game requiring minimal effort. While it can be annoying seeing 10 tables of FP open in training, I can understand why players prefer it (I myself often enjoy a simple, chilled out game).


Exactly, after a long day of work i don't want to yell and scream through a game i'm supposed to be having fun in. Classic and fancy pants are quick and stress free.
SyphruM
over 10 years

Xplicitable says

Has the idea of an intermediate lobby come up?
With farming casual setups like cocos and fp banned and a pool of mid range setups?


You just described comp.
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years

Xplicitable says

Has the idea of an intermediate lobby come up?


Yeah, but that splits up the site even more. It'd go from 2 'cliques' to 3. I think the goal is harmony and unity between all players of all skill and all levels.
Steven
over 10 years

thevigil says

Wouldn't that be the same as transferring training to comp though?


Neither of the two is happening.

I say "delete comp" because if I said anything about training every training player would panic and resist change. It is easier to look at it as deleting comp and bringing back the training competition, because it is in fact that. The competitive players will be forced to either accept the change or leave the site while the training players will have to be okay with the new competition having some players from competitive (hey, the players aren't a virus, we have nice and not so nice people, but if anything is a worry some competitive players did play in the training rounds before so it won't be much different than that, though there might be more people).

It really is more of a lobby merge with "training" being the dominant community now, but I prefer to call it deleting competitive. Once it happens, though, all it will be is one big lobby, nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality
Xplicitable
over 10 years
Has the idea of an intermediate lobby come up?
With farming casual setups like cocos and fp banned and a pool of mid range setups?
TheVigil
over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

No, because 'transferring training to comp' is asking players to leave what I imagine they feel is a 'comfort zone'. Training has the higher playerbase too, so it'd be more difficult, more timeconsuming and more hassle to move a good deal of the site into comp. Not to mention the issues with being forced into a lobby named "competitive" when you might not be interested in competing.

If comp is having the issues, and training is doing fine, why should training go through the motions of moving for the betterment of comp?


Good point.
SyphruM
over 10 years

Steven says


SyphruM says


Steven says

I'll say it again. Delete comp, bring back training competitions to compensate with a point requirement to stop GT alts and cheating, no changes to the red hearts.


Unless different setups are comp'd, I don't believe this would solve much. If anything, comp games would take longer to fill due to there being many more games going on at once, getting each pushed further down the pages.


New players will try out the weird gold looking hearts ever so often (a filter between gold and red would be awesome for those who think the lobby will get cluttered too), and that's all we want, really. If they prefer the red heart games, they go back to that. But seeing a game open and having to change lobbies and communities to see that game open is a big difference


"New players" wouldn't be able to try out anything with a gold heart. That's the whole purpose of the point requirement. So again, if no one is playing the unranked/red heart versions of these comp setups currently -- which is already clear they aren't --, what is going to compel them to do so in the future? This all leads back to the same problem you describe, lack of exposure.
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
Jupiter, I may have it wrong, but it sounds like you're tarring everyone who plays FP/classic with the same brush.

Not everyone plays those setups to pointfarm/for easy wins. Sometimes the simplicity of the mechs and the PR reliance makes for a gentle, quick game requiring minimal effort. While it can be annoying seeing 10 tables of FP open in training, I can understand why players prefer it (I myself often enjoy a simple, chilled out game).
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
No, because 'transferring training to comp' is asking players to leave what I imagine they feel is a 'comfort zone'. Training has the higher playerbase too, so it'd be more difficult, more timeconsuming and more hassle to move a good deal of the site into comp. Not to mention the issues with being forced into a lobby named "competitive" when you might not be interested in competing.

If comp is having the issues, and training is doing fine, why should training go through the motions of moving for the betterment of comp?
Satan
over 10 years

Satan says


TheVigil says

I guess my big question is whats the problem with how it is now? If players stop playing competitive maybe its a sign they don't want to play competitive. Forcing us to do something not only wont work but will result in backlash...we've had enough players leave as it is.


As a mentor are you saying you don't want to help your mentees become better so they can play more complex setups? Moving to different lobbies doesn't affect them in any other way besides moving to a different lobby. Their games won't be restricted in the new competitive lobby (as i understand it at least)

Jupiter
over 10 years
You took that quote out of context, Emmer. The site was never about people abusing Classic Mafia and Fancy Pants. 3 years ago Classic was never played and people enjoyed it fine. We want to bring the site more back to its roots in a sense, but we aren't restricting people from playing those setups at all because we understand that's what people prefer.
TheVigil
over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

Satan did a post a few weeks back (cba to find the link) about promoting the setups comped in the comp lobby round at the time and I started hosting a load of those setups in training to get players accustomed to the setups/roles (notably B2NS and JATW) and while people were playing those setups and generally enjoying them, when asked if they'd play them competitively, no one was interested. Most put it down to the atmosphere of comp, some said they didn't feel 'ready' and the rest just said they were happy in training.


Steven says

Delete comp, bring back training competitions to compensate with a point requirement to stop GT alts and cheating, no changes to the red hearts.


I completely agree. Comp lobby has/is died/dying. No amount of site changes to training (wtf @ the point cap idea) is going to change that, imo. So instead of tailoring training around the needs of comp (possibly to the detriment of players in training), try deleting comp all together and play unranked, ranked and comp games in a 'Main Lobby'.


Wouldn't that be the same as transferring training to comp though?
Steven
over 10 years

SyphruM says


Steven says

I'll say it again. Delete comp, bring back training competitions to compensate with a point requirement to stop GT alts and cheating, no changes to the red hearts.


Unless different setups are comp'd, I don't believe this would solve much. If anything, comp games would take longer to fill due to there being many more games going on at once, getting each pushed further down the pages.


It wouldn't change things for people like you who just enjoy playing simple ranked games, but it would change everything for new players joining the site.

Training is the only way into competitive, the reason some new players are overwhelmed with competitive is because of a lack of exposure. Curiosity killed the cat, they say. New players will try out the weird gold looking hearts ever so often (a filter between gold and red would be awesome for those who think the lobby will get cluttered too), and that's all we want, really. If they prefer the red heart games, they go back to that. But seeing a game open and having to change lobbies and communities to see that game open is a big difference
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years

Jupiter says

As much as we dislike people playing 3000 games of Classic Mafia and Fancy Pants


This is the problem - who are you to dislike the setups a player prefers? If someone wants to play 10k games of classic, they're free to do so without judgement. The site was intended for gaming and enjoyment so if a player feels he/she is getting both of these from constant games of FP, site success.
EmmerrLouise
over 10 years
Satan did a post a few weeks back (cba to find the link) about promoting the setups comped in the comp lobby round at the time and I started hosting a load of those setups in training to get players accustomed to the setups/roles (notably B2NS and JATW) and while people were playing those setups and generally enjoying them, when asked if they'd play them competitively, no one was interested. Most put it down to the atmosphere of comp, some said they didn't feel 'ready' and the rest just said they were happy in training.


Steven says

Delete comp, bring back training competitions to compensate with a point requirement to stop GT alts and cheating, no changes to the red hearts.


I completely agree. Comp lobby has/is died/dying. No amount of site changes to training (wtf @ the point cap idea) is going to change that, imo. So instead of tailoring training around the needs of comp (possibly to the detriment of players in training), try deleting comp all together and play unranked, ranked and comp games in a 'Main Lobby'.