Epicmafia

Training Lobby Change Proposals

over 10 years

Hi training lobby. I haven’t properly introduced myself here but you’ll know TheBrontosaurus well as your lobby owner. One of the things we want to improve on EpicMafia considerably is the harmony and synergy of other lobbies, and give players old and new many different ventures on the site.

One of the stumbling blocks that we have is finding a way to keep training running the way it is, whilst also not making it exploited by point farming with new users who wish to play the game.

I’ve made a thread in competitive which I hope you take time to look at too which has more ideas that can make their way to this lobby, it can be found here.

https://epicmafia.com/topic/63209

So what are the ideas that we have for training?

1) Lobby rename

One issue that’s easy to notice with training is that it has lost its meaning for most of the players in this lobby. We don’t wish to splinter another lobby for new players only, but would like to rename it to something more appropriate. At the moment the leading name is Casual, but I realize that there is an online stigma behind this. If you can think of better names, please let us know.

2) 10K points cap

One of the problems with training is users using it to farm up points. There’s been a lot of aggressive suggestions on how to fix this, one method we had very long ago was forcing people to join comp lobby once they reached a certain threshold. We do not want that to happen again, but we also do not want point farming by playing with newer users.

What does this mean if implemented? It means that once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have. We think this is a generous amount to deter point-farming, but you are still fully free to play in the lobby unrestricted if you wish. Stats and other achievements will still be viable and tracked.

3) Greater input with moderators

One bias we notice is how most new moderators are picked from competitive. We realize that most mods have been picked from the comp lobby in the past, however we certainly want to embrace new variation when we look for new moderators in the certain future. If you’re ever interested in being one, feel free to PM an application for it to be reviewed.

Finishing notes

I realize this might look like a forced attempt to boost competitive player numbers. Partially, it is, but I hope you check out the comp thread too if you would like to see more information.There are news ideas in that thread that will be added to training too. Please give any feedback you have, thanks again.

TheVigil

over 10 years

Steven says

SyphruM says

Satan says

EmmerrLouise says

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games.

they can move to competitive lobby and play the same games. and they could also maybe meet some comp players who don't fit the typical comp stereotype and they could you know, join the competition.

That's the thing: most training players don't "play the same games" or setups as comp players. That's mostly the reason behind comp's waning population, many people would prefer to not learn an entirely new setup.

This will be fixed by deleting the competitive lobby, however, because the setups picked will be by the winners as always, and the winners will come from that lobby.

It really is the best thing IMO to delete competitive lobby, I just don't think it will happen sadly

Comp is the smaller player base. It would make sense.

TheVigil

over 10 years

CharlesMark says

the real issue here is that we have a waning elitist sect of the site that desperately wants to survive and must recruit new cult members to do so

Yes, but there hasn't really been a good way of doing so.

Steven

over 10 years

SyphruM says

Satan says

EmmerrLouise says

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games.

they can move to competitive lobby and play the same games. and they could also maybe meet some comp players who don't fit the typical comp stereotype and they could you know, join the competition.

That's the thing: most training players don't "play the same games" or setups as comp players. That's mostly the reason behind comp's waning population, many people would prefer to not learn an entirely new setup.

This will be fixed by deleting the competitive lobby, however, because the setups picked will be by the winners as always, and the winners will come from that lobby.

It really is the best thing IMO to delete competitive lobby, I just don't think it will happen sadly

CharlesMark

over 10 years

the real issue here is that we have a waning elitist sect of the site that desperately wants to survive and must recruit new cult members to do so

TheVigil

over 10 years

Another question is if these changes happen how much of the player base will we lose?

SyphruM

over 10 years

Let's just ban everything except Games lobby checkers and connect 4.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

But imo would I go through the motions of playing a relatively time-consuming, difficult setup knowing I wouldn't get any points if I won that game? Probably not - I'd want something to show for my time spent.

TheVigil

over 10 years

Satan says

EmmerrLouise says

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games.

they can move to competitive lobby and play the same games. and they could also maybe meet some comp players who don't fit the typical comp stereotype and they could you know, join the competition.

i'm sure if these changes are implemented this will be the case.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

SyphruM says

I thought the competitive element in training came from your win/loss, never knew anyone actually cared about score. Also, what's to stop "Player A" from degrading in their participation now? Losing doesn't detract from score.

Really, it all depends what a player cares about more: pie chart or score.

I think it's a subjective thing, how someone perceives 'competitive' play in training. But I think it'd be rare to have one without the other (a high w/l ratio and many points). While one person might consider points important, the other may want a good pie.

Player A might just be mad at the world the day he/she hits 10k. ;)

Xplicitable

over 10 years

SyphruM says

Xplicitable says

Has the idea of an intermediate lobby come up?
With farming casual setups like cocos and fp banned and a pool of mid range setups?

You just described comp.

Correct. But right now the nature of comp is far more elitist, preserved to trophy runs nearly. There is no middle ground, and as pointed out by Emmerr, that this would split the playerbase into 3 sections, I don't think that would be too big of a deal.

CharlesMark

over 10 years

or they could meet the comp players because comp was deleted

also satan is a known troll stop arguing with him XD

SyphruM

over 10 years

Satan says

EmmerrLouise says

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games.

they can move to competitive lobby and play the same games. and they could also maybe meet some comp players who don't fit the typical comp stereotype and they could you know, join the competition.

That's the thing: most training players don't "play the same games" or setups as comp players. That's mostly the reason behind comp's waning population, many people would prefer to not learn an entirely new setup.

Satan

over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games.

they can move to competitive lobby and play the same games. and they could also maybe meet some comp players who don't fit the typical comp stereotype and they could you know, join the competition.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

Satan, bash the argument, not the arguer. Straw man is never good. TheVigil may hold personal beliefs about the site (and competitions) - doesn't necessarily effect the way they mentor others (who I suspect aren't interested in comp lobby anyway, but that's by-the-by).

TheVigil

over 10 years

Satan says

TheVigil says

Maybe we don't want your precious gold heart games.

as a mentor you don't support competitions, when you're supposed to be helping players become good enough to join competitions.

And as a mentor I will try my best to do that, but that doesnt mean i have to personal agree with it. Just because im a mentor doesn't mean i don't have personal opinions.

Steven

over 10 years

The 10k point cap is a bad idea: I believe training and competitive players can agree on that

SyphruM

over 10 years

EmmerrLouise says

SyphruM says

How does a point cap in training force anyone to move to comp?

I think it's because:

- once a player hits 10k points, they cease to receive any points from winning ranked games in training therein
- many training players like a 'competitive' side to their games (or they wouldn't play ranked games)
- if that competitive element is removed beyond 10k points, for many players there ceases to be any reason to stay in training (unless they find they're content playing unranked games)

However, what hasn't been considered is this:

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games. Player A decides therefore that their participation in any ranked game therein won't effect their score (positively or negatively). Suddenly Player A decides, therefore, to give no effort or contribution to that game. At worst, he/she even decides to troll it/GRS/veg.

The game is then ruined for those who could still benefit from the win (in terms of points) and you may have reports everywhere.

I thought the competitive element in training came from your win/loss, never knew anyone actually cared about score. Also, what's to stop "Player A" from degrading in their participation now? Losing doesn't detract from score.

Really, it all depends what a player cares about more: pie chart or score.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

While this theoretical scenario would be rare (someone with 10k points is likely not a troll), it may effect ranked games negatively if there ceases to be any 'reward' for playing them. Would you take a setup like Jan 2.0 or VDLI seriously if, even after 1 hour of scumhunting/playing, you got nothing when you won?

TheVigil

over 10 years

SyphruM says

TheVigil says

Steven says

thevigil says

Wouldn't that be the same as transferring training to comp though?

Neither of the two is happening.

I say "delete comp" because if I said anything about training every training player would panic and resist change. It is easier to look at it as deleting comp and bringing back the training competition, because it is in fact that. The competitive players will be forced to either accept the change or leave the site while the training players will have to be okay with the new competition having some players from competitive (hey, the players aren't a virus, we have nice and not so nice people, but if anything is a worry some competitive players did play in the training rounds before so it won't be much different than that, though there might be more people).

It really is more of a lobby merge with "training" being the dominant community now, but I prefer to call it deleting competitive. Once it happens, though, all it will be is one big lobby, nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality

If they implement the point cap then yes most of the training base will be forced to move to Comp. So yes that is whats happening.

How does a point cap in training force anyone to move to comp?

Without points there's less incentive to stay 1 of 3 things will happen.

1. Casual players will stay without points
2. People will leave
3. People will go to Comp for there points

This is a problem for players who don't want to go to Comp for there points

Satan

over 10 years

TheVigil says

Maybe we don't want your precious gold heart games.

as a mentor you don't support competitions, when you're supposed to be helping players become good enough to join competitions.

Steven

over 10 years

Steven says

Ultimately what most people want (at least except the few that hold grudges against the other lobby) is harmony and unity, and if deleting competitive lobby seems to be the way to go at it, there's no reason not to do it.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

SyphruM says

How does a point cap in training force anyone to move to comp?

I think it's because:

- once a player hits 10k points, they cease to receive any points from winning ranked games in training therein
- many training players like a 'competitive' side to their games (or they wouldn't play ranked games)
- if that competitive element is removed beyond 10k points, for many players there ceases to be any reason to stay in training (unless they find they're content playing unranked games)

However, what hasn't been considered is this:

Player A reaching 10k points and no longer able to score in training BUT still able to play ranked games. Player A decides therefore that their participation in any ranked game therein won't effect their score (positively or negatively). Suddenly Player A decides, therefore, to give no effort or contribution to that game. At worst, he/she even decides to troll it/GRS/veg.

The game is then ruined for those who could still benefit from the win (in terms of points) and you may have reports everywhere.

TheVigil

over 10 years

Satan says

TheVigil says

I guess my big question is whats the problem with how it is now? If players stop playing competitive maybe its a sign they don't want to play competitive. Forcing us to do something not only wont work but will result in backlash...we've had enough players leave as it is.

As a mentor are you saying you don't want to help your mentees become better so they can play more complex setups? Moving to different lobbies doesn't affect them in any other way besides moving to a different lobby. Their games won't be restricted in the new competitive lobby (as i understand it at least)

this is being ignored when it shouldn't be

I'm not saying that. I'm saying i don't agree with the way there doing it.

SyphruM

over 10 years

TheVigil says

Steven says

thevigil says

Wouldn't that be the same as transferring training to comp though?

Neither of the two is happening.

I say "delete comp" because if I said anything about training every training player would panic and resist change. It is easier to look at it as deleting comp and bringing back the training competition, because it is in fact that. The competitive players will be forced to either accept the change or leave the site while the training players will have to be okay with the new competition having some players from competitive (hey, the players aren't a virus, we have nice and not so nice people, but if anything is a worry some competitive players did play in the training rounds before so it won't be much different than that, though there might be more people).

It really is more of a lobby merge with "training" being the dominant community now, but I prefer to call it deleting competitive. Once it happens, though, all it will be is one big lobby, nothing of the "training vs comp" mentality

If they implement the point cap then yes most of the training base will be forced to move to Comp. So yes that is whats happening.

How does a point cap in training force anyone to move to comp?

Satan

over 10 years

TheVigil says

I guess my big question is whats the problem with how it is now? If players stop playing competitive maybe its a sign they don't want to play competitive. Forcing us to do something not only wont work but will result in backlash...we've had enough players leave as it is.

As a mentor are you saying you don't want to help your mentees become better so they can play more complex setups? Moving to different lobbies doesn't affect them in any other way besides moving to a different lobby. Their games won't be restricted in the new competitive lobby (as i understand it at least)

this is being ignored when it shouldn't be