deletedabout 13 years

I would post the game in question but the suspension doesn't allow me to enter games and check which one.

There are a few issues. In game I told everyone why I would not out my reports. During D1 everyone was set on lynching my fake ccs guilty. My innocent may have very well have aided mafia more than aided town as giving them an additional wifom option to utilize as they saw fit. I asked clearly why I should out it and the reasons given were to me, unpersuasive and unsubstantial. I was open to discuss it further but no one else was. This is more of an impatient intolerance on the towns part than anything else. It may be said, however, that this represent incompetence on my part and due to the progression of the game, specifically me getting lynched and the fake cc living it was. Incompetence is not a punishable offense. It is an implicit part of who gets assigned cop. Some are good and agreeable and some are not. Just as you could not justly punish a person who plays their first ranked game and doesnt out their cop report out of noobishness and you would not punish a semi-experienced player for, let's say, faking guilty on townie who had bad reaction and not outing the innocent because the reaction was sufficiently guilty to him, you cannot punish an experienced player like myself for analyzing the mechanics of the set up and judging it unfavorable out reports.

There was also a greater point I was trying to make. I have found in my experience of playing EM that people players which consider themselves to be skilled develop biases. These biases can manifest in many ways but what is of concern here are the types which make players jump to a conclusion of auto-mafia. I have found not outing reports as cop is one of them. Players have become hyper-sensitive to it. Even the timing of a report seems to have some intrinsic weight in determining the mafia/town. This is in my view erroneous. It allows for one of the most counter-productive mind sets, what I call (for lack of a better term) “event over trend” mindset. This occurs when player(s) finds a singular occurrence so utterly convincing they ignore all other events in the game and focus on it only. It is almost like unintentional, event aimed tunneling. This is the principle part I was standing on. I do not indulge in towns counter-productive practices. I presented that principle and doing so actually reinforced their bias and got me lynched with more enthusiasm. Not a single player made any comment to suggest that the outing of reports would make me look more cop like, they simply wanted it as safety precaution in case I was cop they would have something. I believe this behavior harms the EM community and the quality of games on EM and thus I rebel against it. I hope but doubt that the players will think twice about judging so quickly.

There is another problem and that is the problem of freedom and rules. To my knowledge, there are no rules which mandate a pr to out a report under any circumstances. Because of this, it falls in the realm of player discretion (as it ought). Because of this to punish me is really an attempt at a certain type of censorship, a censorship against play styles. If it is conception and desire of the PR it must be dealt with it lest it can be proven to be intentionally malicious. This is also distinguished from trolling which would be doing so for no reason at all. This case was not a troll nor an act of malice but my way of playing in response to the game itself, concerns for the community and the set up itself. I was going to be lynched either way and my reports were going to be doubted and largely discredited due to the Guisers. It would have put town in a relatively identical situation. It may have been frustrating for town but that is irrelevant. For these reasons I believe my case deserves no punishment.

deletedabout 13 years
lol
deletedabout 13 years
nicegirl, why dont you reenact litterbug somewhere else
deletedabout 13 years
The reaction test was we wanted to see if you'd come back into this thread if we mentioned your name.
deletedabout 13 years
sorry to rejoin this conversation, I dont really want to continue the argument....but what reaction test?
about 13 years
Also Germ, he never said that.
about 13 years
There are rules now dictating reaction tests? The game eh, I've seen it a thousand times before. It seems to me like it's being used as an excuse to punish Leo for being Leo, because that doesn't look suspendable to me, at all. Mildly stupid, but no suspendable.
about 13 years
I read the game. The suspension was deserved IMO.
deletedabout 13 years
wonderland•3 hours 47 minutes
I do not think this is Germatrons fault so please back off the attack a bit, please. Its our lack of complete knowledge . . .

It really has nothing to do with a "lack of complete knowledge"; Germ suspended Leo when Leo committed no offense warranting suspension. The solidarity is awesome, though.
deletedabout 13 years
I don't blame Germ, i just think that you need to learn from mistakes.
deletedabout 13 years
I think the main problem is the fact that mods seem to be "ban first, ask questions later" without hearing both sides.
about 13 years
At this point I do agree cases such as this we should be more lenient DUE to this situation alone. I am saying Germatron did what I thought was the proper action at the time and because of the communities response we now know as a whole to be more lenient in cases like this.

So basically, you're right :P
about 13 years
wonder, I'm not attacking Germ. But when it is "right on the line", come down on the side of the players right to not be a robot.
about 13 years
Second, There are fine lines between EVERY action that could be taken as trolling or else just stubborn play. When I first read this game I completely agreed with Germatron due to Leo saying that he wanted to punish the town for being ignorant, or something along those lines. Though after 7 pages of Leo explaining himself I believe his actions were right on the fence of being legit and being troll.

I truthfully think the only solution to this problem would be a new option for moderators which allowed them to give a "popup" warning with a direct chat box in it. So it would be impossible to ignore and then the player could explain what happened THEN with all the information the Mod could make a decision. Right now its very difficult to read a game from an outside perspective and see the truth making our position very tough.

I do not think this is Germatrons fault so please back off the attack a bit, please. Its our lack of complete knowledge and lack of complete tools which makes the "iffy" actions we take worse. At the time I would have taken the same action Germ did and thus I fully support him and am ready to defend him if needed.

Sorry for the inconvenience but the best way to get the most out of mods is through community involvement and we need you to make this possible. It is obvious that the majority of the community agrees that Leo wasn't doing anything wrong and thus the mod team KNOWs to tread lightly in this area of suspensions and punishments. Thank you all for your support.
about 13 years
There are several flaws with the overall system of how things are run, which until we have further tools we cannot truely address or fully encompass in our attempts at making this game as enjoyable as possible for the majority of the players.

First of all, there is no simple chat system to speak to someone about actions taken place. The best we can do is post on walls or attempt to game stalk them, which in all honest me nor the majority of the other mods have the time nor the will to do. The majority of conversations occur outside of the site itself and it isn't easy to get in contact with people. If we are debating a small say one hour suspension, I want to suspend the player instantly after the offence occurred. I don't want to wait 24 hours to get an explanation then suspend a player for a short time because the point becomes nullified.

-Cut for length restriction-
deletedabout 13 years
This is his playstyle.
Honestly though, next time do what maxwell said - get an explanation first, and you can give him a warning or whatever but I think his actions are justifiable enough.
deletedabout 13 years
leo is soooooooooooooooooooooo but hurt
deletedabout 13 years
When did I say I intended to harm town?
deletedabout 13 years
crank, leo said one of his motives for not outing report was to harm the town. Im confused as to what Im missing.

To everyone that's like "I should be the bigger man and walk away" or something like that:

Whenever someone complains about a suspension, I have two options, either ignore them and give them no voice or actually discuss it with them. Obviously I would rather just ignore them, but I thought discussing the suspension with them would be more fair.

If I should just ignore anyone who complains, please tell me, because I would love to be able to ignore their complaints.
deletedabout 13 years
How can I get a topic stickeyed? I think a consensus really needs to found. I would have no problem with using my game as an exampled case.
deletedabout 13 years
Oh, now Germ is equating "wanting to harm the town" with harming the town, even though the primary game-related motive was to aid the town. This is great.

I am dragging this out because I hate people, especially people in administrative positions, who refuse to admit that they are wrong when the evidence that they are wrong is overwhelming. I know that you are smarter than this, Germ, so it's obvious that this has become a point of pride rather than of right and wrong for you.
about 13 years
Questionable suspension is questionable. Mods shouldn't get themselves into this position, unless its very clearcut they should stop and think to themselves and prehaps discuss it. Prehaps there should be a few games used as guidelines to decide if something is suspendable or not.
deletedabout 13 years
The topic would be named something like "Rules of EM" and would resolve all these issues.
deletedabout 13 years
Yes, this also ties into the consistency of mods thread I saw before. This is clearly an issue that the issuance of mods has created and ought to be addressed.I suggest we have a one topic that is stickyed until the issue is over which will discuss the issues that have been brought up in this topic. Once resolved the measures can be enacted and then the thread unstickeyed or however its said.

Is that agreeable?
deletedabout 13 years
just to clarify, I suspended riot because he claimed to be trolling. If he didnt admit to trolling, I wouldnt have suspended him
deletedabout 13 years
Sure, I'm willing to discuss what deserves a suspension or not.

For blatant and obvious trolling a suspension should be enacted straight away, but I think you can even agree this is not obvious trolling at all.

In cases like this before a suspension is acted upon a mod should attempt to contact the player in question and find out their reasoning behind the move. If their reasoning makes logic sense I don't see any reason a ban should be enacted, again in this case this wouldn't occur.

If the mod is still unsure whether or not the person was trolling or just playing unoptimally a warning should just be handed out.