deletedover 13 years

I would post the game in question but the suspension doesn't allow me to enter games and check which one.

There are a few issues. In game I told everyone why I would not out my reports. During D1 everyone was set on lynching my fake ccs guilty. My innocent may have very well have aided mafia more than aided town as giving them an additional wifom option to utilize as they saw fit. I asked clearly why I should out it and the reasons given were to me, unpersuasive and unsubstantial. I was open to discuss it further but no one else was. This is more of an impatient intolerance on the towns part than anything else. It may be said, however, that this represent incompetence on my part and due to the progression of the game, specifically me getting lynched and the fake cc living it was. Incompetence is not a punishable offense. It is an implicit part of who gets assigned cop. Some are good and agreeable and some are not. Just as you could not justly punish a person who plays their first ranked game and doesnt out their cop report out of noobishness and you would not punish a semi-experienced player for, let's say, faking guilty on townie who had bad reaction and not outing the innocent because the reaction was sufficiently guilty to him, you cannot punish an experienced player like myself for analyzing the mechanics of the set up and judging it unfavorable out reports.

There was also a greater point I was trying to make. I have found in my experience of playing EM that people players which consider themselves to be skilled develop biases. These biases can manifest in many ways but what is of concern here are the types which make players jump to a conclusion of auto-mafia. I have found not outing reports as cop is one of them. Players have become hyper-sensitive to it. Even the timing of a report seems to have some intrinsic weight in determining the mafia/town. This is in my view erroneous. It allows for one of the most counter-productive mind sets, what I call (for lack of a better term) “event over trend” mindset. This occurs when player(s) finds a singular occurrence so utterly convincing they ignore all other events in the game and focus on it only. It is almost like unintentional, event aimed tunneling. This is the principle part I was standing on. I do not indulge in towns counter-productive practices. I presented that principle and doing so actually reinforced their bias and got me lynched with more enthusiasm. Not a single player made any comment to suggest that the outing of reports would make me look more cop like, they simply wanted it as safety precaution in case I was cop they would have something. I believe this behavior harms the EM community and the quality of games on EM and thus I rebel against it. I hope but doubt that the players will think twice about judging so quickly.

There is another problem and that is the problem of freedom and rules. To my knowledge, there are no rules which mandate a pr to out a report under any circumstances. Because of this, it falls in the realm of player discretion (as it ought). Because of this to punish me is really an attempt at a certain type of censorship, a censorship against play styles. If it is conception and desire of the PR it must be dealt with it lest it can be proven to be intentionally malicious. This is also distinguished from trolling which would be doing so for no reason at all. This case was not a troll nor an act of malice but my way of playing in response to the game itself, concerns for the community and the set up itself. I was going to be lynched either way and my reports were going to be doubted and largely discredited due to the Guisers. It would have put town in a relatively identical situation. It may have been frustrating for town but that is irrelevant. For these reasons I believe my case deserves no punishment.

deletedover 13 years
okay leo, however I will not take part in this discussion and will just do whatever you guys decide because I feel like as a mod, my job is not to make the rules but to enforce them. it would probably be best to make a separate thread about it too so everyone can discuss it from a third person stand point and not just talking about leo's game.
over 13 years
As I've pointed out several times already, both here and in the Mod actions, I fear that the Mods are trying to moderate play style. Riot, Leo, and Arlian have all been suspended for play style choices that were not normative. Making a bad play while trying to win is not trolling, nor is it game throwing.

As I said above, suspending people for suboptimal play would lead to Bronze being shut down. Likely Silver too. We would all just go hang out in the sandbox and troll each other in survivor...
deletedover 13 years
I also mysteriously still can't enter any games. What should I do?
deletedover 13 years
And yes let us please talk about what justifies punishment and then have those rules available somewhere like the wiki or preferable in the learn tab so all can see it.
deletedover 13 years
It is important imo that we settle this. I don't think anyone wants, whoever they see as deserving blame, to repeat their behavior.
deletedover 13 years
"Germ, we're going in circles here. You're stating he was trolling for not outing his report as town and thus the suspension is justified when the reasons behind it have been explained already"

Im fine with agreeing to disagree, Id prefer this turn into an argument of "what justifies a suspension" if we want to go to the root of the problem.
deletedover 13 years
What exactly does Leonardo want from Germ? An apology? If so, I don't see why he doesn't apologize and end this already.
over 13 years
OK, I'm actually going to come down on Leo's side fully here. Not for the post ban behavior, but for his play. It was not trolling. The fact that he was in a guiser setup makes his choices understandable, if not optimal.

And, if you are going to ban people for suboptimal play, close bronze...
deletedover 13 years
Germ, we're going in circles here. You're stating he was trolling for not outing his report as town and thus the suspension is justified when the reasons behind it have been explained already.
deletedover 13 years
I mentioned 5 of them in a previous post.
deletedover 13 years
what's the bigger issue?
deletedover 13 years
I am referencing in game town.

I never admitted it was a mistake. I just said that even as a mistake it still makes me undeserving of suspension. Furthermore, I never said I wanted to harm town. I think you are projecting an idea of me rather than paying attention to what I wrote.

Also, no one has addressed the bigger issues.
deletedover 13 years
"He was frustrated that he was getting lynched, if he wanted to game-throw he would have willingly been lynched"

that's like saying "if he wanted to troll, why did he even bother investigating at night"
deletedover 13 years
""He seems to have taken the fact you banned him personally and has decided the only way to deal with this and move forward is to attack you back."

The quote I linked you, he was talking about the game. He was saying " I was also partially taking a stand against their hatefulness as well." where them=the town who was lynching him "


He was frustrated that he was getting lynched, if he wanted to game-throw he would have willingly been lynched.
deletedover 13 years
"Do you think the attitude everyone took was acceptable? And if so then I would ask if it was proper or even ideal?"

I dont know what youre referencing so I cant answer these questions

"He seems to have taken the fact you banned him personally and has decided the only way to deal with this and move forward is to attack you back."

The quote I linked you, he was talking about the game. He was saying " I was also partially taking a stand against their hatefulness as well." where them=the town who was lynching him

"1. That didn't cause him to play against his win con."

First of all, leo has admitted to making a mistake and has agreed that outing cop reports would have been best. Obviously, suspending based off a mistake is wrong, but he has also admitted to wanting to harm town. Those two things seem to go hand in hand

"3. Why are you dragging this out?"

I want this to die, why are YOU dragging this out?
deletedover 13 years
Abuse of power /=/ gain.
deletedover 13 years
It's not an abuse of power, he gains nothing out of having you suspended. I think it's merely a misunderstanding of the game as well as a lack of clear guidelines over what is and isn't suspendable.
deletedover 13 years
It is not personal. I just think this is an abuse of power OR a representation of underdeveloped rules and such.
deletedover 13 years
Germ, Crank summarized the point of that statement. I want to ask you a ?. Do you think the attitude everyone took was acceptable? And if so then I would ask if it was proper or even ideal? If you can answer no to any of those that statement should not be a point for you to get stuck. Ironically, you seem to be doing the event over trend thingy I mentioned only out of game.
over 13 years
he says you're a stupid head who suspends stupidly and out of being petty and don't care for rules
deletedover 13 years
He seems to have taken the fact you banned him personally and has decided the only way to deal with this and move forward is to attack you back. I can't say that he's dealing with this the right way that's for sure. At the same time, I don't see any real reason for him to recieve or have recieved a punishment.
deletedover 13 years
1. That didn't cause him to play against his win con.
2. Regardless—he didn't play against his win con.
3. Why are you dragging this out?
deletedover 13 years
"How can you, as a mod, believe that rude, insulting or cruel social interaction do not matter? In fact, I would say those issues are far more worrisome than anything else in this topic. I was also partially taking a stand against their hatefulness as well."

explanation for that maxwell?
deletedover 13 years
Wait, I just spectated the game. I really don't understand how him not outing his reports is suspendable then.

Sure, it's not play I would recommend, but I can see the logic behind him not outing it being that guiser could disguise into his innocent or kill them. Assume town had not lynched him at that time and instead lynched his cc, town would have had an autowin position.
deletedover 13 years
I currently have no alts. Let that be known. I have often been accused of having troll alts by people who do not like me. Again, I have no alts.

There are bigger issues that this topic has brought up and I will list them now:

1) The unilateral power of mods
2) What qualifies as cheating, trolling etc.
3) Where the rules are listed
4) EM's tolerance of cyber-bullying like socializing
5) A fallacious thought process that should be give a name, the "event over trend" fallacy I mentioned before

These are the most apparent to me. I would not push this long if it was solely about me being suspended. There are deeper issues which ought to be addressed.