deletedabout 13 years

I would post the game in question but the suspension doesn't allow me to enter games and check which one.

There are a few issues. In game I told everyone why I would not out my reports. During D1 everyone was set on lynching my fake ccs guilty. My innocent may have very well have aided mafia more than aided town as giving them an additional wifom option to utilize as they saw fit. I asked clearly why I should out it and the reasons given were to me, unpersuasive and unsubstantial. I was open to discuss it further but no one else was. This is more of an impatient intolerance on the towns part than anything else. It may be said, however, that this represent incompetence on my part and due to the progression of the game, specifically me getting lynched and the fake cc living it was. Incompetence is not a punishable offense. It is an implicit part of who gets assigned cop. Some are good and agreeable and some are not. Just as you could not justly punish a person who plays their first ranked game and doesnt out their cop report out of noobishness and you would not punish a semi-experienced player for, let's say, faking guilty on townie who had bad reaction and not outing the innocent because the reaction was sufficiently guilty to him, you cannot punish an experienced player like myself for analyzing the mechanics of the set up and judging it unfavorable out reports.

There was also a greater point I was trying to make. I have found in my experience of playing EM that people players which consider themselves to be skilled develop biases. These biases can manifest in many ways but what is of concern here are the types which make players jump to a conclusion of auto-mafia. I have found not outing reports as cop is one of them. Players have become hyper-sensitive to it. Even the timing of a report seems to have some intrinsic weight in determining the mafia/town. This is in my view erroneous. It allows for one of the most counter-productive mind sets, what I call (for lack of a better term) “event over trend” mindset. This occurs when player(s) finds a singular occurrence so utterly convincing they ignore all other events in the game and focus on it only. It is almost like unintentional, event aimed tunneling. This is the principle part I was standing on. I do not indulge in towns counter-productive practices. I presented that principle and doing so actually reinforced their bias and got me lynched with more enthusiasm. Not a single player made any comment to suggest that the outing of reports would make me look more cop like, they simply wanted it as safety precaution in case I was cop they would have something. I believe this behavior harms the EM community and the quality of games on EM and thus I rebel against it. I hope but doubt that the players will think twice about judging so quickly.

There is another problem and that is the problem of freedom and rules. To my knowledge, there are no rules which mandate a pr to out a report under any circumstances. Because of this, it falls in the realm of player discretion (as it ought). Because of this to punish me is really an attempt at a certain type of censorship, a censorship against play styles. If it is conception and desire of the PR it must be dealt with it lest it can be proven to be intentionally malicious. This is also distinguished from trolling which would be doing so for no reason at all. This case was not a troll nor an act of malice but my way of playing in response to the game itself, concerns for the community and the set up itself. I was going to be lynched either way and my reports were going to be doubted and largely discredited due to the Guisers. It would have put town in a relatively identical situation. It may have been frustrating for town but that is irrelevant. For these reasons I believe my case deserves no punishment.

about 13 years
He's not Jesse. I know that for a fact.
deletedabout 13 years
maxwell, please read the thread instead of just leo's first post
deletedabout 13 years
deletedabout 13 years
Germatron•31 seconds
are you asking me "prove that not outing cop reports was harmful?" if so....what?

He said that he thought outing his reports was the suboptimal play. I don't know what's so difficult about this for you. It shouldn't be hard to wrap your brain around. Admit that you were wrong and move on, and try not to be wrong again.
deletedabout 13 years
No, I don't believe he is Jesse. Though from what I can tell by skimming the thread he does have a point and a case.

If the ban was soley due to him not outing his reports in a setup based around a disguiser, his case holds fully ground.

Can someone show me a link to the game in question please?
deletedabout 13 years
If the issue is about intent then you either did not read what I wrote or you simply believe me to be a liar.

There is no contradiction. A person can hold those two ideas as motivating factors at the same time. If I had thought the reports would have, overall, been better for town then I would have outed. In this case however I say both a bias and a lack of benefit. My argument about principles in game was also an attempt to sway them from viewing as mafia which I explained in a previous post too. In other words like I said a person can do something with multiple motivations and not contradict themselves.

I do not have the ability to repeat myself over and over again or explain things that can easily be imagined. This only topic has practically been me against everyone else with no one granting any of my premises or looking at anything else other than what suits their case. It feels like the goal is to annoy me until I stop posting rather than actually get at the truth of the matter.
deletedabout 13 years
are you asking me "prove that not outing cop reports was harmful?" if so....what?
deletedabout 13 years
Prove that the ethical motivation was harmful.
deletedabout 13 years
but the ethical motivation was trying to harm town while the stragegic motivation was trying to help town. Do you really not see the contradiction?
deletedabout 13 years
The fact that he had both strategic and ethical motivations for his play doesn't mean that the ethical motivations outweighed the strategic motivations so as to render it trolling.
deletedabout 13 years
maxwell, do you know if leo is furrball/thunderokc?
deletedabout 13 years
" I was also partially taking a stand against their hatefulness as well"

how was he taking a stand against them while also thinking not outing reports was beneficial for town? I mean...what?

Jako9b•3 minutes 42 seconds
>mfw Germatron tries to outsmart crypto

I mean....what?....I feel like he's trolling me
deletedabout 13 years
For the record, I have seen Leoonardo to do some uncommon plays or tactics in games in the past, but none of them were attempting to troll/gamethrow.
deletedabout 13 years
I'm going to go get a coffee and finish frying me some bacon, but I'll read this when I get back.
deletedabout 13 years
"I said in the original post, Guiser filled set up gives mafia wifom power with knowledge of innocent reports."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
"I thought outing would be harmful."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
My quote contradicts all of your points, proving leo's argument invalid and proving he trolled deliberately.
deletedabout 13 years
"This case was not a troll nor an act of malice but my way of playing in response to the game itself, concerns for the community and the set up itself."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
>mfw Germatron tries to outsmart crypto
deletedabout 13 years
"Because of this to punish me is really an attempt at a certain type of censorship, a censorship against play styles."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
"I do not indulge in towns counter-productive practices."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
"How can you, as a mod, believe that rude, insulting or cruel social interaction do not matter? In fact, I would say those issues are far more worrisome than anything else in this topic. I was also partially taking a stand against their hatefulness as well."

discuss
deletedabout 13 years
". . . you cannot punish an experienced player like myself for analyzing the mechanics of the set up and judging it unfavorable out reports."

Discuss.
deletedabout 13 years
crank, this isnt about suboptimal play. This is about trolling.

Leonardo didnt out his report for the purpose of harming town, not because he didnt realize outing reports help town.

Also, leo, I dont know why you cant play games and the XXX thing is still being handled
deletedabout 13 years
Yes, it is.

Deciding whether or not to out your reports based on the roles in the setup is a question of optimal play, not of trolling or playing to your win condition.

Mods should not be punishing players for making (what they perceive to be) suboptimal plays.

The end.