Anyone not in the game (including mods) is not allowed to tell you how to play this setup. If you think a certain action is playing towards your win condition, you have every right to take that action. However, there are certain situations where you must follow follow some rules. Asking people to read this thread during the game is NOT OGI.
If you have to choose between two options in the game and those options will lead to 1) certain loss or 2) even a 0.000001% chance to win, you must do #2. It is gamethrowing to do #1. Example scenarios are below:
For the purposes of this guide, SCUM = Spy/Stalker/Killer
1: You are Hunter/Agent/Vigilante/Jailer in a 3-way with Killer & Spy/Stalker:
Voting anything other than "no lynch" IS GT.
If you are Jailer, and you no lynch, jailing either of them IS GT.
If you are Vigilante, and you no lynch, shooting at night is NOT GT. If killer kills mafia and mafia no kills, you can only win by shooting killer.
2: You are Hunter/Agent/Vigilante/Jailer in a 4-way with Killer and Spy/Stalker:
If Vigilante and one other town are alive, and the town thinks that scum does not know who the vig is, then lynching mafia is NOT GT.
If Vigilante is not alive or if scum knows the vigilante, then voting anything other than "no lynch" IS GT.
If you no lynch, and you are Vigilante, then shooting at night is NOT GT.
If you NL, and you are Jailer, and Vigilante is known by scum or is dead, then jailing anyone IS GT.
3: 5-way with 2 scum alive:
Lynching known hunter IS GT.
If you know a scum, then no lynching IS GT, because you can lynch one scum that day and another tomorrow instead of going into 4- or 3- way with 2 scum.
If you lynch on a 5 way, then shooting as Vig is NOT GT.
If you NL, then jailing or jailkilling is NOT GT.
If you are lynched as Hunter, Vig is dead or known to scum, and killer/a mafia role are alive, then shooting as hunter IS GT.
4: If you are scum in a 3-way involving Killer, Mafia, Town:
Lynching Hunter is NOT GT. But it is against the win condition of the Hunter to lynch. Therefore, the Hunter will propose to NL, otherwise they will shoot you. This puts you at a greater risk. You can then make a pact with the other scum and NL and kill the Hunter at night. It is NOT GT to betray or to not betray even though you get a higher payout if you betray and kill the other scum. It is a choice you can make to maximize your payout over several games by setting up your meta that you do not betray.
Lynching the other scum is NOT GT if the town is voting with you.
I've likely missed some stuff, so mods please comment any other scenarios with rules to be enforced and I can add them. There are many other scenarios where some actions are suboptimal, but they are subjective to the situation, so we cannot pre define rules for them.
Killer might kill maf. If killer kills maf and maf doesnt kill killer then killer wins. Killer will definitely kill maf as with vig alive only the killer is vulnerable.
The bottomline is that killer should not nl if vig is alive. Killer has to joint with maf and lynch vig.
Unless you have a logic to determine which is mafia and which is killer, it is a coinflip. If you have a mechanical or any other logic you can take the shot. But if you don't then you are picking a person to lose with. The moment you compared this with fancy pants i understood you won't get this.
mandevian, how don't you still understand me that less than 100% chance of autoloss if not autoloss... I mean it's less than 100% of bad lynch that results in "100% autoloss", it's exactly 50% if you know both scum.
I'll give an analogical example: Fancy Pants with N1'd gunned cop. As GS, you recommend to lynch on mylo. But the truth is that referring to your post:
For Fancy Pants version it sounds like:
if you are given a hammer in 6 way. AND YOU DO NOT KNOW WHICH ONE IS TOWN AND WHICH ONE IS MAFIA. Then lynching one of them means if you kill the town then mafia wins 100 percent. Taking the 40 60 there means you are flipping a biased for your disadvantage coin and it can't be distinguished from the case where you kill the person you want to lose with. Therefore you are playing kingmaker. Therefore it is gamethrowing.
About the point 2... in my previous post I forgot to mention you have to have a living vigil, no matter if he's known or not - you always shoot as hunter on 5way and lynch on 4way for mafia so the vigil can shoot the killer for town autowin.
I will hide out in a bushy tree where people cant see me. Below the tree, i will dig an 8 foot hole and cover it with a cloth that looks like the ground. then when a man falls into the hole, i will cover the hole with netting so he can't escape. And then i caught a man!!!!!!!!!
the rules are that the man is not allowed to escape!
if you are lynched as hunter in 5 way. AND YOU DO NOT KNOW WHICH ONE IS KILLER AND WHICH ONE IS MAFIA. Then shooting one of them means if you kill the killer then mafia wins 100 percent. Taking the 50 50 there means you are flipping a coin and it can't be distinguished from the case where you kill the person you want to lose with. Therefore you are playing kingmaker. Therefore it is gamethrowing. This applies only when the vig is known. If the vig is hidden you can take your shot.
Point 2- if you lynch a mafia or killer in 4 way with both alive then the other scum wins. So it is autoloss. 100 percent autoloss. Because the mafia or killer will kill and win. Therefore it is gt.
Shooting as hunter on 5way and lynching on 4way with 2 scum alive is not GT because it's not autoloss. You say about the chance of autoloss, but when it's less than 100% chance of autoloss, it's not autoloss
Quiet! You don't know the real play, mandevian. If there's vigil alive and hunter shoots mafia, vigil can shoot the killer. The chance to win is much higher than hunter not shooting, expecting killer to backstab NK'ing mafia or the situation where mafia decides to backstab killer and killer decides to backstab mafia. So you better get rid of the mafia first, then let vigil shoot the killer.
I understand you shouldn't sacrifice confirmed hunter on 5way because less chances to win, although it's not autoloss, lynching uncc'd hunter is GT. But on 4way it's optimal to lynch/jailkill for mafia because it's 50% chance you win while the double backstab for town win is like 0.000001%.
How do you know which scum is mafia and which is killer? My case is only when you don't know for sure by mechanics. I clearly mentioned "scum" which is used as a combined term for mafia and killer.
5way, hunter lynched shoots mafia, known vig shoots killer... killer kills whoever, in result one town survives and wins the game.
4way vigil/jailer/mafia/killer - you lynch mafia or jailkill him while vig shoots the killer. Mafia is unable to kill in both cases, killer kills whoever, one town is left alive and wins the game.
It is gt because when the person decides to shoot in 2 scum they are effectively playing kingmaker with a known vig. They are giving free win to the other scum. Going into certain loss. It is better to have a chance of winning instead of going into certain loss. And if vig overrides killer then if you are 100 percent sure based on mechanics about the mafia in killer and mafia, only then you can shoot there.
