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ban guns from competitive games

deletedover 10 years

people are using the same mentality for shooting a gun as lynching, it's absolutely impossible to make a competitively viable setup with guns, they promote trolling and gamethrowing, the power to instantly remove one person from the game is overbearing and this community can't handle it. furthermore, remove deputy, sniper and gunsmith from competitive lobby and training lobby. part of the problem is guns cause games to become trollish, fast-paced and lower effort which has leaked onto other games, guns probably should be banned from competitive lobby yes, guns are slowly killing competitive lobby. and by slowly, i mean someone get nikki on the phone and tell him to ban guns from competitive lobby. guns are becoming the new lynch, that'st he problem with most new setups. lynching is only ever for lylos now, and equivalent to set in stone absolutes, rather than placeholders for FOSes and reactions. it also encourages a chain of command that makes reading harder, hence why most gun setups end up being scumsided. not only do you run the risk of a *** pr, you also lose any valuable voting process and instead get SHOOT KYLE LOL a bunch. by replacing lynching for a ML with guns, you effectively neuter most competent setups and ruin any form of methodical strategy that could be employed.

guns shouldnt be in comp lobby.. plain and simple, they are either game breaking for town and make easy wins out of nothing or they give mafia a free win because the person with gun shoots. also , theres an entire rule dedicated to hipfiring with guns. guns give people an excuse to grudge lynch people without being able to be opposed. if youre pr with gun you have full control no matter how much town objects, which is just silly.

setup the best setup is what more setups should look like. both PRs shoudl optimally hide instead of claiming , PR claim d1 is the only bad thing about VDLI. if one of the power roles was squishy instead of hard to kill (doc is "squishy, bp is "hard to kill", etc") then it would be great , imo.

and i remember when people actually LIKED playing those scumhunt based setups,. they preferred it to gimmick ones. regardless of whether anyone thinks overall play is worse or better, the attitude people have towards scumhunt setups or scumhunting in general is worse now, which makes overall play worse as a result.

deletedover 10 years
people self-voted in minesweeper years before gallis hunter actually
deletedover 10 years
malaka it's a point thats already been brought up twice and refuted w/ the fact that the competition is dead and unless you feel like waiting a long time you have to run on the most popular setup
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
and yeah, from my understanding the self-vote meta stemmed from Gallis Hunter?

It's separate than the problems with guns, but it's easy to group the two problems together imo.
Peta
over 10 years

Malaka says


Peta says

Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.


The goal of the game is to have fun.


No, it's not. The goal of the game for one team, the informed minority, is to eliminate the uninformed majority. The goal of the game for the other team, the uninformed majority, is to eliminate the informed minority. Both goals are achieved primarily through verbal interaction, so anything that obstructs verbal interaction goes against the spirit of the game.
deletedover 10 years
setups being balanced with guns means absolutely nothing.
Malaka
over 10 years

kyle says


Malaka says


Peta says

Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.


The goal of the game is to have fun.


the goal of a competition is to be a fair and balanced competition, fun comes second.


This could be true, but when people join gun setups they do it with the agreement that the setup is fair and fun, if you don't like these setups, then you can just play setups without guns
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years

Peta says

Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.


This is a good point. Silencer/Fiddler are both roles that need to go imo (especially Fiddler).

The argument that the person with the gun greatly impacts the outcome of the game is essentially true of any setup that revolves around PRs and them hammering, albeit guns give people immediate control and disallow them from changing their reads, like how you may change your mind when someone is kicked on or putting pressure on via votes. You can't really do that with a gun.

It is unfortunate that setup makers would be limited, but to be fair no one seems to mind that a lot of roles don't find their way into comp.
deletedover 10 years
well hipfiring seems to be inconsistent and depends on what mod does your hipfiring report
Peta
over 10 years

kyle says

and part of the argument for banning guns is that the community can't handle them, which you people are agreeing with so w/e.


Insofar as there are statistically balanced gun-containing setups, yes, the community can handle them.
deletedover 10 years

Malaka says


Peta says

Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.


The goal of the game is to have fun.


the goal of a competition is to be a fair and balanced competition, fun comes second.
Malaka
over 10 years

Peta says

Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.


The goal of the game is to have fun.
GuyFawkes85
over 10 years
Community can be thaught, again. If you're so worried by that, apply as a mentor, and teach them.
GuyFawkes85
over 10 years
@kyle

Can't find the thread, anyway hipfiring falls under GT. Here a report showing it:

https://epicmafia.com/report/101385
Peta
over 10 years

kyle says

with guns, people don't have to scumhunt and clears get instant ability to remove people from the game, which they now expect when they play vdli, when clears ask people to self vote 30 seconds into the day it's the same thing as randomly shooting someone day 1 in a gun setup.


The emergence of poor meta in setups involving guns isn't an explanation for the adoption of poor meta in setups not involving guns.
deletedover 10 years
and part of the argument for banning guns is that the community can't handle them, which you people are agreeing with so w/e.
deletedover 10 years
what you're saying is that it's just a coincidence that with the rise in popularity of gun setups, people have gotten lazier, clears demand hammer more often with no scumhunting, no one cares about reactions to votes or vote patterns anymore.
Peta
over 10 years
Probably every single gun-based setups should be banned, but your arguments in this thread mostly suck. You should be pushing for a ban from Competitive Lobby on roles that are against of the spirit of the game, e.g., silencer, fiddler. If or when that happens you can try to make the case that roles involving guns fall into that category.
Malaka
over 10 years

Peta says


kyle says

it is actually peta,. self-voting being similar to having a gun and the idea only appearing with the popularity of guns isn't a coincidence.


Wax lyrical to me on your evidence that guns caused self-vote meta.


...
deletedover 10 years
The crux of the problem is not that guns are bad for comp, but dreadful players are detrimental for comp. I will explain. If a competent player has a gun, town has a high chance of winning. Same applies vice versa, dreadful players ruin town’s chances of winning. This conclusion also applies for a non-gun setup too. Competent players win games, dreadful players lose games. It is as simple as that.
deletedover 10 years
with guns, people don't have to scumhunt and clears get instant ability to remove people from the game, which they now expect when they play vdli, when clears ask people to self vote 30 seconds into the day it's the same thing as randomly shooting someone day 1 in a gun setup.
Peta
over 10 years

kyle says

it is actually peta,. self-voting being similar to having a gun and the idea only appearing with the popularity of guns isn't a coincidence.


Wax lyrical to me on your evidence that guns caused self-vote meta.
deletedover 10 years
it is actually peta,. self-voting being similar to having a gun and the idea only appearing with the popularity of guns isn't a coincidence.
Sims
over 10 years
guns don't have to do with any sort of meta. the self vote meta is just similar to having a gun
deletedover 10 years
i don't think there are any competitively viable gun setups.
GuyFawkes85
over 10 years
Hipfiring IS gt... wait, I'll go for the thread.