I would like to have a thought provoking and civil conversation about ISIS.....what you think will stop them, what will make it worse. Please make this a civil and appropriate discussion. i am looking for a good conversation not a flame war.
deletedalmost 10 years
I can't even respond to all that because it outright is untrue and bad logic.
mohammad was a real man that raised a real army after supposedly being visited by an angel. This real historical figure took over towns including Medina, Mecca and others quite brutally converting by the sword. That is historical fact that cannot be disputed. IF you try to dispute that then you are just plain out of reality.
How can you take the quran out of context. It flat out says those things about killing no believers etc. There is no way you could not interpret it to mean anything less.
ISIS is Islam.....granted it is a militant Islam that is not wildly popular but it is still Islam. Trying to deny its islam just makes your argument weaker.,
Closing Remark One thing I have noticed over the years is that every time some major event regarding Islam happens, more people actually end up converting to Islam because they actually take the initiative to go and find out for themselves what Islam is actually about and then they see it for what it really is. Basically, stop letting the media and the internet form your opinions and go find out for yourself. There's a reason you never see a real scholar on one of these news channel debates, it's because they are too busy actually trying to practice Islam the right way in the way the Prophet has shown.
Who is ISIS? Who gave them authority to try to form a Caliphate? Who is their leader? Never heard of him until ISIS showed up.
The opinions expressed above belong only to me. I am not speaking for anyone else here. Any other Muslims feel free to let me know if there is something I said which you think is incorrect.
As I mentioned above, all verses should be read with context. So you will refer to Jihad verses and I ask you to read those in context and I am perfectly fine with you finding out the context of the verses I have asked you to check. I am confident that the meaning of the verses I have asked you to check will not change when looked at in context while the meaning of the verses which you are quoting will likely change. Again, I am not a scholar.
So how will you do this Grannie? How will you find the context? Well if you HONESTLY and REALLY want to know and find out then you are going to have to get off the internet and actually go and sit down with a legit Muslim Scholar if you want to get your questions answered - not a random muslim guy you know, not necessarily the guy who leads prayers at the mosque nearest you but someone who actually studied 8 years to become a scholar. You might not even have one around you depending on where you live. Not to argue with them. Just to be like "hey can you please tell me why this verse does/doesn't mean to go slaughter every infidel?" You will NEVER EVER be able to get an understanding if you just surf the internet. If you want to have a discussion with me you can PM me or we can even talk on the phone I don't mind. But I am not a scholar.
Anyway, if you look at the life of the Prophet, there are numerous stories of his forbearance. One example you can read the story of when he went to Taif and what happened. One argument which has already been made is that if 1 Billion people wanted to kill everyone that wasn't Muslim, there would be a lot more bloodshed. Lastly, check out verse 2:256. Basically means you cannot force someone to convert.
Ok now....
Grannie I think you have some misconceptions. As I stated above, all Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of God. Going around and killing nonbelievers is not okay. That is also not Jihad. Suicide bombing is also not okay. As a Muslim, I want everyone else to be Muslim. Killing them is not going to help me achieve that. However, if you come fight me because I am Muslim, then I will fight you. Then that's Jihad for me. If I am walking down the street and someone attacks me because I am Muslim and I die, then I am a martyr. Me being the aggressor and attacking you for no reason out of the blue is not jihad. Meaning, if I fly a plane into a building to kill innocent people for no reason and I die doing that, it doesn't make me a martyr. Please refer to the story of Taif I mentioned above. Please also refer to verse 2:256.
Here are a few more verses you can refer to which instruct Muslims on calling others towards Islam. 41:33 3:110 3:104 16:125
I believe you are mistaken here. 1) "Not all Muslims practice it as radically as ISIS does." - ISIS is not practicing Islam bro. This isn't one of those things where "mainstream" Muslims say that ISIS isn't practicing Islam but ISIS are the "real" Muslims and the "mainstream" Muslims are just trying to cover their .
2) Islam did not start with a man conquering cities and forcing people to convert. Before I go any further, let's make sure we all understand a couple of things. Islam is based on the Quran and the Sunnah. The Sunnah which Wikipedia describes pretty well is "the way of life prescribed as normative for Muslims on the basis of the teachings and practices of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad and interpretations of the Quran." The Sunnah is why Islam is a full way of life. The Quran says to establish prayer. Okay cool but how do we know how to pray? The act of prostrating, performing ablution before praying etc. That is based on the way the Prophet did it. The other thing we need to be very clear on is that the Quran was revealed directly to the Prophet via divine revelation over many many years as needed and in different situations. This is why context is very important. This is also why an average person cannot go read the Quran at face value and interpret it.
Background Info: I am Muslim. I am by no means a scholar.
So I read through the whole thread and will summarize some thoughts I had. Not looking to get into an argument about religion. Almost everyone is speaking pretty rationally based on their own beliefs but I feel that Grannie is a bit misinformed. Will get to that later.
OP ISIS is not islamic. According to my views, ISIS fall under the category of khawarij. That's something you guys can look up on your own. Basically means extremists in a nutshell. Most Muslims would like to see the end of ISIS just as much as the rest of the world. In fact, ISIS is basically just asking for it lol.
I don't think the US should back out of military action. ISIS took American lives. Basically egging the US on. I don't really get into politics/military stuff much but I think a few nations (US, UK, Jordan) would wipe out ISIS if they got together and launched a coordinated attack. I don't really see how ISIS can have any significant military capabilities at all. I do understand that there is much more that goes into a war and it's not as easy as it sounds.
To be very clear, as a practicing Muslim, I do not agree with ISIS's actions and I believe they are getting sins for them.
deletedalmost 10 years
Keeping the religion out of this discussion, obviously removing them by brutal force is the only possible answer. Sad but true.
Or just accept that mankind is screwed in its current state anyway.
deletedalmost 10 years
If we didn't keep our religion based culture Armenia(us) wouldn't exist anymore.
Yeah in retrospect that was too strong a claim. I'll take that back, not all cultures based on religion are inherently useless. I was more talking about practices based on religion that are still enforced in certain cultures.
Culture based on religion isn't culture worth keeping around? Really? You do realize most, if not all cultures are largely based upon religion, right?
For example: native american religion (or all indigenous religions) is (are) their culture. There is no distinction. You can't make a blanket statement that all cultures based on religion aren't worth keeping around. You're pretty ignorant and it's people like you who give atheists a bad name.
edit: sorry for using native american examples, but i had to read an entire book on the subject today so it's the most fresh.
I say good on them for ignoring the will of the prophet and instead joining the rest of the world in the 21st century, where we don't dictate what women are allowed to wear.
deletedalmost 10 years
Turkey is a Muslim country with barely any hijab wearing. Egypt too. What's wrong with them?
I would. Culture based on religion isn't culture worth keeping around.
Case in point: the hijab. Sure it's a garment traditional to middle eastern and other cultures that goes back centuries. But take Islam out of the equation and all you've got is women being forced to wrap themselves head to toe in cloth for no good reason at all.
Hey me too, I'd eradicate all religions just as quickly. But if I had to pick just one it would have be Islam. Sorry Christians, yours would be my second choice though <3
Well force generally means through force of violence or a threat of violence. I would never threaten someone with harm in order to change their beliefs. But if I could change their beliefs by pushing a button, such that they would magically stop believing in Islam, yeah I would do that.
how was that out of context? You said it's not about forcing them to believe or not believe anything in the same post that you said you could push a button that would make muslims stop believing in islam or the quran.
Edit: Triple post on my first day back, good god I am terrible.
but really, I read this thing awhile ago, some dude did the math, and the only group of people who have a non-zero chance of being right is the atheists.
I would like them to stop believing it very much, but I wouldn't prevent them from believing what they want by force. You can't change someone's beliefs by force anyway - that's not how a belief works. You can only stop believing something voluntarily - by reaching the conclusion on your own that your original belief was false.
Edit: By the way, you're quoting a hypothetical that I was putting to UniversalStudios, and your quotes are out of context anyway.
given that native american religion can not be separated from their every day life, the term animism is usually used when describing their religion. You're missing my point though.
no people are stupid which is why "religion" is used to control them. If people aren't smart enough to control their faith, what makes you think they'll handle "rational thinking and logic" any better?
