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Comp Setup Catalogue [Discussion]

thebrontosaurus
about 10 years

Comp Setup Catalogue

Original Thread

Thank you, Connor, for your contributions to the language used in the OP and formatting. Thank you, itg123, for making visual represntations of the setups in 2 sheets.

This thread is to be used for discussion of competitive setups, both currently recognised in the catalogue and new potential creations from the community, appropriate for competitive play in both the Training and Comp Lobbies. This is a resource for recent trophy winners to discuss or question the validity of their desired setups for use in the next competition, as well as the place for any user to add, challenge or question any changes to the catalogue in its current state.

If you see anything previously comped or with a vast number of plays that has missed, please point it out. This is a pretty massive undertaking so any community support is greatly appreciated and encouraged. Likewise, if something is added and shouldn’t be – please let us know and we’ll take it down. Currently, I’m not adding any setups that are old and with a few plays unless specifically requested by the community.

--

There are the flexible guidelines of attributes commonly seen in competitively viable setups, and it certainly isn’t law, however it encompasses almost everything used currently in competitive play.

  • 7-10 Players
  • Town:Mafia win ratio does not exceed 42:57 or 55:45 (after ~200 plays)
  • Has no 3rd parties unless the third party wins with either town/maf exclusively. Ex. Traitor wins with Mafia, Amnesiac wins with either town or mafia in Suppa Magical Grey Scales
  • Cannot utilize roles or role combinations that can be deemed gamebreaking. (Doc joints on DYLG, War on Terror, etc)

Other Rules related to setup selection

  • A setup can only be comped once per three rounds. So if Jan 2.0 is comped Round 1, it can not be comped again until Round 4.

  • This includes similar variants of said setups. So if someone comps SDS w/ML no Whisper Round 1, they cannot comp the version with a Miller and one less blue the following round. Either setup can be selected for Round 4, but not both.

  • Setups with similar variants will be allowed/disallowed at mod discretion.

  • Any setup which becomes recognized as poor for comp will be taken down at moderator discretion.

--

It is recommended and encouraged that all new setups to be comped are linked here so we can review and discuss their viability. If a setup is at one point, deemed unviable due to a lack of balance in point spread, if the balance is restored via playing in red hearts and the meta on it changes, the setup can be re-submitted to be listed as comp viable. But if it slips far past the accepted marks, then it will be taken down after community and moderator deliberation.

As new setups arrive, this is the perfect place to discuss their balance as they are play tested, and it would be assumed that a setup over the course of theory discussion and playtesting of about 200 plays, it's balance and viability can be determined and added as necessary. It is recommended and encouraged that all new setups to be comped are linked here so we can review and discuss their viability. If a setup is at one point, deemed unviable due to a lack of balance in point spread, if the balance is restored via playing in red hearts and the meta on it changes, the setup can be re-submitted to be listed as comp viable."

As this thread is new, this is a pretty massive undertaking so any community support is greatly appreciated and encouraged. Likewise, if something is added and shouldn't be – please let us know and we’ll take it down."

itg123's Visual Version ||| Popular ||| New/Other |||

Steven
about 10 years

thebrontosaurus says


The thing is, Steven, is that certain setups are allowed to be played in red hearts in comp lobby but are disallowed from gold. Reverse Mafia and Fancy Pants, for example. It'd be easier to do a blanket blacklist ban, but making it clear that certain setups are a no-go for gold hearts is how it's being done right now. It's a change that can be made for the sake of having things more clearly defined and is something I will consider and discuss with the other mods and Arcbell.



Im aware. Such setups are obviously not to be put in this list
thebrontosaurus
about 10 years
Happeh & Kyle: Yeah, I'll change the ratio dependent on the A&D situation. Sorry for missing that post earlier. I'll keep everyone posted on the changes if there are any to be made.

The thing is, Steven, is that certain setups are allowed to be played in red hearts in comp lobby but are disallowed from gold. Reverse Mafia and Fancy Pants, for example. It'd be easier to do a blanket blacklist ban, but making it clear that certain setups are a no-go for gold hearts is how it's being done right now. It's a change that can be made for the sake of having things more clearly defined and is something I will consider and discuss with the other mods and Arcbell.
Steven
about 10 years

Happeh says

The list is a resource of competitive setups, which A&D doesn't fit the criteria of. That doesn't stop it from getting comped.


I think if a setup doesn't fit the criteria of "being competitive" it shouldn't be allowed to be comped. Everyone's definition of a competitive setup is slightly different though so we should go by the official (the moderator's) definition of a competitively acceptable setup (anything that is allowed in comp) in supposedly objective threads such as this one, whether or not you disagree with their decision on a setup (and I am a firm believer of 70 being the max a setup should give for town or mafia on 2 party setups, but like I said before that discussion seems to be a different one than this thread's purpose?)
deletedabout 10 years
42:57 or 54:46 seems more reasonable to me.
Hibiki
about 10 years

Happeh says

I also propose the Town:Mafia limit be decreased to 42:57, like SDS. SDS is the most scumsided setup I'd ever consider playable.

Hibiki
about 10 years
The list is a resource of competitive setups, which A&D doesn't fit the criteria of. That doesn't stop it from getting comped.
Steven
about 10 years

Happeh says


If this list is so meaningless, why do you care what we remove from it?


I don't think whatever happens with the list will matter at all. You could call it more of an OCD impulse. I don't like things being incomplete and a setup thats comped every other round, as much as we all hate it, makes sense to put in the round until/if it's blacklisted.

I see the list as a resource, not as a way to encourage certain setups, but if the intent is the latter, then sure, you're right. I don't think it would work as the latter though, and it doesn't make sense to exclude setups if it's a resource.

EDIT well bronto just called it a resource there you go~
Riddler
about 10 years
A&D can be a town pointfarm with incompetent mafia, especially with how bad the point payouts are. It's not difficult to win as town and nab 72 points. In the 2GS setup, I won as mafia a few times.
thebrontosaurus
about 10 years

Riddler says

And for what it's worth, THAT setup was removed four days into the round. A&D can be as well.


I had to ask for permission to remove it before it happened. It also was a town pointfarm so the situation was slightly different.

Steven, the list is to be a resource for people to more easily find various setups for competition, since when you look through "find game", there are plenty of setups that are either broken or not suited for comp. It's meant to streamline the process for people looking to find something to comp. It also provides provisions for what generally fit as a competitive setup and promoting new setups. It's still a work in progress and I think it has potential to be a useful resource for the community.

That's what makes it touchy - blacklisting means it can't be played in red hearts either. Blacklisting from gold only is more on the honors system than anything else and is done case by case unless there are mod features I'm unaware of (which is totally likely). If A&D is going to recognized as unfit for future comps, it doesn't belong in the archive of comp setups then.
Hibiki
about 10 years

Steven says

There is absolutely no reason to remove a setup from the archive unless it actually gets blacklisted.


There is, actually. If at any point in time, someone uses the thread as a resource, we do not want them to comp A&D, and while it's not banned (yet) we definitely don't want to encourage it. We can still use our guidelines to steer people away from an unbalanced setup.

Also, unlikely that it may be, it's still entirely possible that someone could use the thread as a means to make their decision and removing it from the thread could prevent it from being picked as it is never considered an option. Little chance is better than no chance.

If this list is so meaningless, why do you care what we remove from it?
Steven
about 10 years
There is absolutely no reason to remove a setup from the archive unless it actually gets blacklisted. Unless you want this to be a competitive setup suggestions thread and not an archive/catalogue like the name suggests.

Trophy winners will still be able to comp it whether or not it's there. And I highly doubt someone that wants to comp it will think twice because it's not in this thread (I highly doubt many people will use this for browsing setups either, it seems more cluttered than helpful IMO.

Might as well leave all setups that are comp approved in the list, and if you think a setup shouldn't be comped, be it A&D or third party setups or Alcoways or whatever it is you disagree with, the issue is of that setup being blacklisted from comp/red hearts rather than it being in this thread or not. I don't see why all the disagreements over X or Y setups shouldn't be on this list, the list is meaningless really.
Riddler
about 10 years
Once lucid added movement, he didn't turn off movement at night, or movement for the dead.

Dead players were able to see who mafia were and could just move to them.

The non-cheating issue that also arose was that town players could just move around a lot at night while mafia was sitting still and typing, giving it away. Nino said he did this and wanted to do it in a game I was in, but the game broke before he got a chance.

It's why I got lucid to remove it from competitive.

I don't think dead players can move anymore at night, but the rest might still be an issue in red hearts.
Riddler
about 10 years
And for what it's worth, THAT setup was removed four days into the round. A&D can be as well.
Hibiki
about 10 years
This thread is NOT for discussing the round goings or black listing of setups. It is purely for discussing the validity of current or new setups and their place on the archive. Just because a setup is deemed uncompetitive, does not mean it will be decomped instantaneously.
Riddler
about 10 years
That might have been a bad setup, but the graphical thing allowed people to actually cheat without getting caught. Nino confessed to doing it, but graphical didn't get recorded so there is no way to prove if he actually did it or not.
thebrontosaurus
about 10 years


You're actively ignoring the solution. If you cannot bring yourself to remove it entirely, replace it with a remade version using the same exact roles. It'll reset the points to 60-60 and allow it to balance itself back out. If it DOESN'T balance itself back out and remains as skewed as it is now, then you, as a moderator, should remove it entirely.


I'm all for this - but I'm not going to do it in the middle of the round, nor am I going to do without hearing from other mods first. If what Kyle said is true about the remakes, it's likely just going to be removed from the archive then.

Jupiter, yeah, right now I'm solely in charge of this. I'm in the process of get something together to get some more mods/members on board - I want this to be as much of a community project as possible which is why I'm holding off on making any big decisions like what to do about A&D.



Please remove it from the archive. We have no reason to encourage it further.


I will once I get the okay from Arcbell / other moderators. I am genuinely for this.



This round is already fucked anyway from people abusing the day we had graphical.


Don't forget this: there a setup with 2 gunsmithes was comped for 4 days too.
Hibiki
about 10 years

Riddler says

I read it as him talking about blacklisting it. I wanted him to acknowledge the non-blacklist solution.


And you read it wrong. So learn to fucking read. Idiot.
Riddler
about 10 years
I didn't realize it was already remade.
Straight to blacklisting, then.
deletedabout 10 years
it was actually remade twice. once when kennedy deleted it and monstermess remade it, and once when nilla was replace with a ninja. both times it shot up past 57/42. another remake will accomplish absolutely nothing.
Riddler
about 10 years
I read it as him talking about blacklisting it. I wanted him to acknowledge the non-blacklist solution.
Hibiki
about 10 years
I also propose the Town:Mafia limit be decreased to 42:57, like SDS. SDS is the most scumsided setup I'd ever consider playable.
deletedabout 10 years
also has everyone forgotten that a&d was already remade to reset the point value and it went right back to 58/41? it's been established as a natural 58/41 setup, remaking to balance it out again will accomplish nothing.
Hibiki
about 10 years

thebrontosaurus says



It would be suicide?

No, bro. That's part of being a moderator. You need to have the cajones to make an unpopular decision. A&D is toxic to competitive. It has asinine payouts. If you don't want to make the unpopular decision, you can do the next best thing: Remove the setup and remake it identically so that the point payouts can balance back out. If they DON'T balance back out, you have a confirmed bad setup. Right now it's too far along to fix.


I don't disagree with you on that - making the unpopular decision is difficult. I've been a mod for 2 days so you could imagine why I am apprehensive to simply removing it despite its standing in the community and how bad the point payouts are. This is something that will definitely be discussed seriously in the near future. At the very least, it won't be comped for two more rounds after this one ends, so there's plenty of time to deliberate. I'd like to see it removed too, but I'm not doing it until I see overwhelming community support and/or the okay from the other moderators. I hope you understand, Riddler.


Please remove it from the archive. We have no reason to encourage it further.


Riddler says

Doing that keeps it playable while you figure out what you want to do.


There's no point in decomping it mid round. Bronto's not ignoring the situation, he's already said he's going to instigate discussion with other moderators (and the community?), which he has two rounds to do because it won't show up. Do you expect him to go rogue mod on his second day? Get a grip, idiot.
Jupiter
about 10 years
bronto if you're the only moderator working on this then you don't really have the authority to pick and choose which setups are included, so you should keep a&d up there like you are
Riddler
about 10 years
Doing that keeps it playable while you figure out what you want to do.