Epicmafia

What's the point of an appeal?

over 8 years

I'm just trying to understand the system itself. I'm sure we can all agree that a method for double checking reports is a good thing. Yet it's far too easy to question the actual validity of the system itself when (as will be discussed) the system is highly subjective to an unpunishable abuse of moderation power.

A recent example (leaving names out to protect privacy) would be where a user received a violation and it was upheld through an appeal. The user in question then threw a bitchfit on the forum, quite clearly for the purpose of causing drama (as seen by the way they tried to publicize the issue, as well as presenting the issue in a manner that was not even the slightest way impartial, and threatening to leave the website), where a third mod stepped in and also confirmed that they would have handed out a vio as well. Finally, a fourth unnamed mod (who is quite slow, worthless, albeit somewhat brotherly) literally claimed to: 1. not read the game, 2. not read any of the discussion, 3. read ONLY the bitchfitter's posts, step in and singlehandedly overturn the ruling upheld by three separate mods on three separate occasions.

The aforementioned incident begs the question: what is the point of the appeals system? Why have this system itself in place when:
1. Anyone literally needs a single mod on their side to get an overturned ruling, regardless of how many mods support/oppose it.
2. There is no enforcement mechanism to prevent the aforementioned abuse of mod power (among other abuses).
3. The aforementioned abuse clearly and directly undermines the validity of the appeals system itself, and also shows a lack of uniformed enforcement of the rules.
4. Let's not forget that the legitimacy of the mods is directly given from the system which they frequently undermine.
5. How/why are we supposed to take the mods, the system, and the rules seriously if its authority figures undermine the source of their authority?

Let's be clear - this isn't a question about whether or not the ruling was correct or incorrect. This is a question about whether or not this type of mod abuse practice is acceptable, as well as questioning the point of the appeals system in the first place. What's the point of having a supreme court when a single dissenting justice can singlehandedly overturn the entire system's decision with no reviewing or punishment mechanism?

Should we have maybe another system where mods can get together and review cases that are very polarizing? Absolutely. However the current situation between the community and the mods can be described as strained, at best. These types of incidents need to be dealt with both systematically and transparently, or it just makes the mods and their rules enforcement a bigger joke than it already is (if that's even possible).

W A L R U S

WildWalrus

over 8 years

UniversalStudios says

Eedis says

Then don't use this site?

EXPLAINS WHY NOBODY DOES ANYMORE.

UniversalStudios

over 8 years

Eedis says

Then don't use this site?

The

over 8 years

The says

Animal control is here.
https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/18143-domesticatedwalrus

deletedover 8 years

WildWalrus says

ark says

TL;DR, Terrible mods.

I LIKE MOST OF THE MODS I'VE TALKED TO AND PLAYED WITH.

i too have only played with pingu

WildWalrus

over 8 years

ark says

TL;DR, Terrible mods.

I LIKE MOST OF THE MODS I'VE TALKED TO AND PLAYED WITH.

Slowbro says

can't undo the past

UNLESS YOU HAVE THE POWER TO ACT UNILATERALLY.

ark

over 8 years

TL;DR, Terrible mods.

deletedover 8 years

can't undo the past

deletedover 8 years

Bump and pretend the other walrus threads didn't happen imo

Sonrio

over 8 years

Satan

over 8 years

mist says

i made it so mods aren't allowed to ban me. it's codified in "Da Rules"

Nice!!

deletedover 8 years

Hibiki says

are we gonna ignore the fact that wildwalrus is linked to a bunch of banned users

We're gonna have issues if you ban him.

deletedover 8 years

i made it so mods aren't allowed to ban me. it's codified in "Da Rules"

deletedover 8 years

i wrote the mod rules in the mod forum

WildWalrus

over 8 years

Hibiki says

WildWalrus says

FALSE. THERE ARE COUNTLESS EXAMPLES OF MODS FAILING TO UPHOLD THE SYSTEM WHICH GRANTS THEM LEGITIMACY. https://epicmafia.com/topic/76037

i'm not taking that thread seriously

CLEAR RULES VIOLATION AND CLEAR INACTION BY A MODERATOR THAT FAILS TO ACT APPROPRIATELY. YET YOU DO NOT TAKE A MODERATOR UNDERMINING THE SYSTEM SERIOUSLY?

WildWalrus

over 8 years

Hibiki says

also, "you cannot appeal an appeal" is not the full rule.

if a verdict of a report changes as the result of an appeal, that appeal can be appealed for the reverse. you cannot appeal a sustained appeal

however, this does NOT apply to moderators changing their minds. they can do that whenever they feel it's appropriate

WHILE I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS OF WHAT TRANSPIRED. SLOWBRO CLEARLY AND ADMITTEDLY UNILATERALLY CHANGED THE DECISION, AND LOSER ALLGEDLY RETROACTIVELY CHANGED HIS MIND.

BUT EVEN IF WHAT YOU STATED IS TRUE, THEN IT BEGS THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS:
1. WHY DID THE SYSTEM FAIL, AND HOW SHOULD WE FIX IT? THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME AN INCIDENT HAS HAPPENED.
2. WHY DID THE REVERSAL TRANSPIRE IN THE PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED MANNER? WHY DID AND SHOULD SLOWBRO CLAIM TO ACT UNILATERALLY?
3. WHY DID LOSER NOT MANUALLY CHANGE HIS RULING OR UPDATE HIS REPORT AND MAKE A VERBAL STATEMENT?
https://epicmafia.com/report/175794
http://i.imgur.com/OZMwt2o.png
4. WHY ARE THE RULES THEMSELVES NOT CLEARLY STATED OR CONSISTENTLY UPHELD?
5. WHY ARE MODS UNABLE TO GIVE CLEAR REASONS BEHIND THEIR DECISIONS, AS WELL AS A DESCRIPTION OF THE STANDARDS THEY USE TO UPHOLD THE RULES?
6. WHY ARE MODS ALLOWED TO BULLY AND THREATEN REGULAR USERS FOR ASKING LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS?
7. WHY IS THERE NO TRANSPARENCY GIVEN TO CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES?

THESE QUESTIONS ARE ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBURG.

Hibiki

over 8 years

theoretically an appeal can be appealed over and over again if the verdict changes every time, but that doesn't happen because by the 2nd appeal, the entire team usually weighs in

Hibiki

over 8 years

also, "you cannot appeal an appeal" is not the full rule.

if a verdict of a report changes as the result of an appeal, that appeal can be appealed for the reverse. you cannot appeal a sustained appeal

however, this does NOT apply to moderators changing their minds. they can do that whenever they feel it's appropriate

Hibiki

over 8 years

WildWalrus says

BUT THIS EXACTLY HAPPENED BY SLOWBRO'S OWN ADMISSION. LOSER RETROACTIVELY (SUPPOSEDLY) CHANGED HIS MIND AFTER SLOWBRO MANUALLY CHANGED IT. ADDITIONALLY, IF THIS WAS THE CASE, WHY DID SLOWBRO OR LOSER HIMSELF NOT SAY THAT, AND WHY WAS THERE NO MENTION OF THIS AT ALL.

because they talked in the mod chat. he doesn't need to post about it
i won't pretend slowbro didn't delete the vio before loser changed his mind. he did that, and got in trouble for it.

WildWalrus says

Hibiki says

3. The aforementioned abuse clearly and directly undermines the validity of the appeals system itself, and also shows a lack of uniformed enforcement of the rules.
there is no aforementioned abuse

THEN THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR SYSTEM. CLEARLY STATES THAT YOU CANNOT APPEAL AN APPEAL, AND ALSO SLOWBRO CLEARLY STATED THAT HE ACTED UNILATERALLY.

it got dealt with. the end result happened to be that slow's opinion was upheld. he still got in trouble.

WildWalrus says

Hibiki says

5. How/why are we supposed to take the mods, the system, and the rules seriously if its authority figures undermine the source of their authority?
points 3, 4 and 5 fall apart when you realise points 1 and 2 are wrong

FALSE. THERE ARE COUNTLESS EXAMPLES OF MODS FAILING TO UPHOLD THE SYSTEM WHICH GRANTS THEM LEGITIMACY. https://epicmafia.com/topic/76037

i'm not taking that thread seriously

WildWalrus

over 8 years

Hibiki says

The aforementioned incident begs the question: what is the point of the appeals system?
the appeal system works as intended

Why have this system itself in place when:
1. Anyone literally needs a single mod on their side to get an overturned ruling, regardless of how many mods support/oppose it.
this does not happen, unless an admin overturns it

BUT THIS EXACTLY HAPPENED BY SLOWBRO'S OWN ADMISSION. LOSER RETROACTIVELY (SUPPOSEDLY) CHANGED HIS MIND AFTER SLOWBRO MANUALLY CHANGED IT. ADDITIONALLY, IF THIS WAS THE CASE, WHY DID SLOWBRO OR LOSER HIMSELF NOT SAY THAT, AND WHY WAS THERE NO MENTION OF THIS AT ALL.

Hibiki says

2. There is no enforcement mechanism to prevent the aforementioned abuse of mod power (among other abuses).
there is, you just don't see it

TRANSPARENCY IS ANOTHER ISSUE I'VE BROUGHT UP; BUT IF YOU THINK YOUR SYSTEM IS CURRENTLY WORKING (CLEARLY IT'S NOT), THEN BY ALL MEANS FULL STEAM AHEAD.
THE IVORY TOWER DEFENSE IS NOT A REAL DEFENSE.

Hibiki says

3. The aforementioned abuse clearly and directly undermines the validity of the appeals system itself, and also shows a lack of uniformed enforcement of the rules.
there is no aforementioned abuse

THEN THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR SYSTEM. CLEARLY STATES THAT YOU CANNOT APPEAL AN APPEAL, AND ALSO SLOWBRO CLEARLY STATED THAT HE ACTED UNILATERALLY.

Hibiki says

5. How/why are we supposed to take the mods, the system, and the rules seriously if its authority figures undermine the source of their authority?
points 3, 4 and 5 fall apart when you realise points 1 and 2 are wrong

FALSE. THERE ARE COUNTLESS EXAMPLES OF MODS FAILING TO UPHOLD THE SYSTEM WHICH GRANTS THEM LEGITIMACY. https://epicmafia.com/topic/76037

Satan

over 8 years

Sims says

mod abuse is at the admin's discretion

and our discretion (the role mods)

Hibiki

over 8 years

no. mods can't be reported for mod abuse. the system in which moderators are kept in line is completely in-house, outside of the report system and solely handled by administrators

Sims

over 8 years

mod abuse is at the admin's discretion

Golbolco

over 8 years

So the mods can see the rule, but the public can't, which leads to the common misconception that mods can't be reported for mod abuse.

Hibiki

over 8 years

yes. the reason is that it's in the moderator forums.

Golbolco

over 8 years

Hibiki says

2. There is no enforcement mechanism to prevent the aforementioned abuse of mod power (among other abuses).
there is, you just don't see it

On a slightly related topic, is there a reason this isn't listed among the site rules, other than the alleged "formatting issues" mentioned by Hima that were total bunk and DrSharky was able to solve in 30 minutes?