Do you believe that physically disciplining a child is acceptable and an efficient way to teach them between right and wrong?
I would think fear can be a very effective and persuasive tool, but I don't think it should be applied to a parent and child dynamic. I just don't like the idea of hitting kids.
You can't have accurate studies on this, since there are way too many factors. As you said, "NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT KNOWN TO BE CAUSE>EFFECT", so everything said after that is irrelevant. Bad people will be bad, whether they get spanked or not. Spanking someone won't turn them into a bad person.
A consistent body of evidence reveals that more corporal punishment by parents is associated with less long-term compliance and pro-social behavior and with more aggression and antisocial behavior. Taken together, these studies demonstrate that corporal punishment does not have the effects parents intend when using it and in fact has the reverse effect of increasing undesirable behaviors. One summary of the literature found that use of corporal punishment by parents was associated with more mental-health problems in all twelve studies examined. In particular, the more frequently or severely children are spanked or hit, the more likely they are to have symptoms of depression or anxiety, both at the time they are corporally punished and in the future.
Welp if you made it this far, I hope you enjoyed my 4000 word review. I’d source the articles and reviews I used, but you’d need to pay to see them so there’s not really any point. Personally I think spanking is ok, but best seldom used and in specific situations. Pretty much all of the literature and academic studies strongly advise against spanking, saying it is no more effective than other methods, and that it can impair social, cognitive, and emotional development.
Thanks for reading :) TLDR It's time to kill this thread and thus I've written a short review on a) my opinion and experience and b) some literature regarding spanking. As an 18 year old who was spanked as a young’n, I think spanking is fine. I was spanked/smacked countless times, and I certainly hated parents bitterly for a few hours, a day, etc, but I don't think it was wrong at all in hindsight.
I’m going to finish off with this review article, Gershoff 2010. And try to summarise it as best I can, because initially I wanted to post about 600 words of it.
Parents have short term goals that correct behaviour; stopping behaviour, getting childs attention, or communicating that the parent is in charge. Long term goals can include negative reinforcement. CP is much more common when child is engaging in unsafe behaviours (to self or others, e.g fork in toaster!), or violating social norms (e.g stealing).
Back in the 80s, when we didn’t really have proper research guidelines, investigations were undertaken to see the effects of time outs. Children were placed in time out, and if they got up early they were either a) spanked or b) placed in a room with a barrier preventing them leaving. Both methods a and b were found to be equally effective, and the researches concluded there is no necessity to physically harm a child for obedience. This conclusion was supported by four separate studies at the time.
Results from multiple studies indicate that corporal punishment is not better than other discipline methods in promoting longterm compliance, and may have unintended negative consequences.
In an analysis of 27 distinct studies, it was shown that the more parents used corporal punishment, the more aggressive their children were. NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT KNOWN TO BE CAUSE>EFFECT. It is ENTIRELY possible that more aggressive children were punished more frequently by their parents, as acknowledged by the analysis itself.
A positive relationship and emotional atmosphere facilitates learning by children. Children are far more receptive to learning/discipline in a positive environment than when parents are angry. Furthermore, a child may not be developmentally ready to learn a new behaviour, in which case spanking is ultimately futile. This pertains especially to toilet training; another (very old, circa 2000) study found that more spanking arises from toilet training than any other issue. “This makes about as much sense as spanking a child for not being able to ride a bicycle.” Instead of hitting a child for walking down the stairs, we install mini fences to prevent kids from trying to go down them; similarly, we shouldn’t hit children for trying to touch the stove, we should explain to them not to go near while youre cooking, and buy them a toy stove instead : ) Redirection (using a dummy instead of chewing.. idk whatever else) is the most common and effective form of teaching for children under 3, far more effective than spanking. Encouragement > Punishment.
Other surveys have found that time out chair and naughty step have had a similar (but less amplified) effect on cognitive skill and externalisation. It has also been shown that the effectiveness of other discipline methods are severely decreased with increased use of spanking. Methods such as encouragement, to teach a child, or time outs, to punish, are much less effective when a child has been “conditioned” by spanking. Time outs can be more effective because they reduce any possible enjoyment a child might have from misbehaviour; a child often misbehaves for attention, and time out is good way of counteracting that.
According to Learning Seed (not really sure how credible these guys are, they make educational videos) spanking is like a drug; a larger dose is required each time to retain effectiveness. The more frequently that spanking is used, the less effective it becomes, but yet the more forceful it must be to change behaviour; this can lead to beatings and physical abuse. Spanking should be used extremely seldom. A survey from about 20 years ago (unknown relevance) showed that about half of parents spank after more stressful, frustrating, or tiring experiences (e.g. work, bad day, etc.). The same survey showed that ~75% (not sure of exact number) of parents are angry when they are spanking the kids. Most parents spank because they feel frustrated, or as a last resort. Directly contradicting my own previously stated opinion here; some reviews state that more frequent spanking to children results in the child more frequently hitting their siblings, and (this was not cited, not sure about credibility) their spouses later on in life.
******************** 3) What does the literature say? Basically gonna try to stick to one paragraph per article/resource.
According to Mackenzie et Al. 2013 and Maguire et Al. 2012, spanking at age 1-3 is not correlated with cognitive / behaviour problems at ages 3-5. Spanking at ages 3-5 was positively correlated with decreased cognitive skills, behavioural problems (mostly externalising – tantrums) at ages 5-9.
MATERNAL spanking (even to a low degree) at age 5 was associated with lower levels of emotional control for the child at age 9. PATERNAL spanking exhibited a lower association, but at high frequency the child had lower receptive vocabulary scores at age 9. “These results demonstrate negative effects of spanking on child behavioral and cognitive development in a longitudinal sample from birth through 9 years of age. “
This is an interesting article particularly: Positive attitudes toward the use of corporal punishment (CP) predict subsequent spanking behavior. Given that CP has frequently been associated with behavior problems in children and child maltreatment, this prevention work was designed to test whether adults’ attitudes could be changed by informing participants about the research findings on problematic behaviors associated with CP. >> The results of the study basically found that after being introduced to relevant scientific literature, the adults were much less inclined to want to use spanking as a punishment. Sort of ironic, considering im arguing PRO spanking, but this basically highlights the fact that spanking should really be LAST RESORT and NOT a regular occurrence or the go-to.
I saw them both, so I had slowed to 20km/h (15mph). In all seriousness, if someone more distracted had been in my place, or if they didn’t have their windows down to hear, they might have missed the child altogether and been travelling 40km/h(25mph) instead. Or if someone less careful or less patient was in my place, they might have sped up once they heard the dad call for the child to wait. Either way, theres a pretty big chance the kid would’ve been hit. The dad was absolutely fearful and when his kid got to him his first reaction was anger; “I told you not to cross”. I didn’t hear much else after that, but the dad was talking to his kid sternly/strictly chastising him.
Now if that is the third or fourth time that the child has committed this specific infringement, then I think it is absolutely ok to smack them. Better they’re angry at you for a while or sad then dead, because while a chastising or command from a parent can all be fun and games, being hit and experiencing that physical pain says that that behaviour is not okay, and is a very strong deterrent not to do it again.
Spanking in my opinion should NEVER be the first go to method of instilling right/wrong in a child. Verbal reasoning should ALWAYS be used first, regardless of the age of the child. If the child is hit for doing something for the first time, how are they meant to know what they did was wrong? In situations like this, the child blames the parents entirely, as they see absolutely no infringement by their own actions. Optimally, the child needs to be made aware of the undesirable behaviour. Warnings should DEFINITELY be used, or count to three, or similar systems (this is negative reinforcement). This way, a child has the ability to cease the misbehaviour, and if they continue then it really is their own fault. Some of you (if any of you read this) might argue that how can a child know its their fault, but if you think that, then you are just admitting that a child is not properly capable of reasoned and logical thought, in which case trying to explain what theyre doing is wrong is totally ineffective.
Moving onto the car example from Ivana. About a week ago now, as I was driving home from work, as I turned into a street a man and his 6ish yr old son were crossing the road from their house to their car. This was a suburban street, and I was the only car on the street at the time. The dad was already almost across the road, while the child was picking up a ball in the front yard and hadn’t started crossing yet. As I turned into the street, the child and dad both saw me and the dad called out twice to his son not to cross the road. The boy hesitated by the side of the road for a second or so, before sprinting across the road to get to his dad.
First of all, it is outright impossible to reason with toddlers and the like. You can try and tell them what is acceptable and what isn’t, but whether they abide by rules or not is completely up to chance. At that age there is simply no distinction between right or wrong. You can tell them not to do something, and while your cuddling them they might listen to you, but if they want you to buy them a new toy then the whole dynamic shifts and they don’t care what behaviour you think is acceptable.
From my own experience, I can’t remember a time when I was smacked for doing something that hadn’t already been discussed. If my parents were resorting to hitting me, it was because the situation had already been broached, and they had already told me what was expected of me, what behaviour was okay and what wasn’t. If I continued to do the wrong thing. Then being hit was a deterrent for next time.
Some of the older EpicMafia(n)s MIGHT remember a time when corporal punishment was common at school. I know that my parents were rapped across the knuckles many a time for bad behaviour during class. Traditionally, respect to the elderly was much more ingrained and much more important socially, so disrespect at home could frequently be met with corporal punishment. Nowadays the practise is banned in many places. Physical abuse and domestic violence is one thing and is utterly and totally disgusting, but corporal punishment in terms of hitting with a strap or spanking? Come on. Unless the entirety of the Generation X is actually closet domestic abusers and violence prone, we are kidding ourselves to say that milder forms of corporal punishment are a cause of violent or antipathic children. Just no.
I strongly feel that in many cases (a) is an acceptable reason to spank a child. There are many situations where I feel that it is the most effective choice. In terms of (b), I’m much less decided; on the one hand I don’t think that “respect” is at all facilitated by spanking, but I also think that spanking establishes the disciplinarian role of parents. It places parents above the child on familial hierarchy, which means if the child performs bad behaviour the punishment is doled out by the parents, who are at the top of the hierarchy. I believe that this is completely separate from the notion of respect, and that a parent should not demand to be respected while dishing out punishment. In my personal experience, that only annoyed/confused me, because I could never consider respecting my parents while they were hitting me.
This also helps to remove the idea from violence compared to familial punishment from a parent. It shows that its not okay to hit someone because they hit you, but it is okay for a parent to hit a child for misbehaving. I think this is needed to teach that, for example, hitting anyone because they don’t do what you want isn’t ok. Punishment needs to effectively “arbitrary”, and to a child, the parents are the ultimate arbitrators (arbiters?)
>> This is why I think if a child swears/hits the mother, the father should dole out punishment, and vice versa. It disconnects the emotional and personal “You hit me so I’ll hit you harder” and turns it into a “You hit mum, and that’s wrong, so youre getting a smack.”
******************** 2) Personal opinion and experience.
I just want to clarify my definitions first. In terms of conditioning.. I could be wrong about these, but this is the way I’m using the terms in this piece. Spanking is a form of POSITIVE PUNISHMENT. A child is hit after bad behaviour. The threat of spanking is NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. A child will cease bad behaviour, because they know that continued misbehaviour will result in a punishment. In the context of this thread, spanking has been talked about in both ways.
I think that in terms of spanking, the reasoning of parents falls under one of two common areas. Either: a) behaviour is not acceptable in that it causes danger to self or others, or is socially unacceptable (e.g. stealing), or disrespectful to persons, and b) behaviour is disrespectful to parents.
Both good points, but I’ve already addressed them, and will elaborate in (2).
Well said, but there are multiple points to this comment, and will elaborate further in (2). IMO though, car example is very good. A child fearing punishment is a good deterrent. To propagate this example, should we remove all school tests and exams because kids might fear failing? No, because they can study in order to pass (this is negative reinforcement). Ivana, having established herself as disciplinarian and giving her kids “the look” is a form of negative reinforcement; children will cease undesirable behaviour to avoid being hit.
Firstly, rofl, secondly, theres a massive culture difference between the 40’s generation, 70’s generation, and 2000’s generation (or thereabouts) -> See section (2). An important point here though is that ivana’s son was last spanked at age 3; clearly verbal reasoning is much preferred to hitting, but how are you supposed to reason with a three year old?
Very important points, will discuss in (2) and (3).
Or more importantly, something the child thinks is wrong. So if a child doesn’t like another child taking their toy, might they hit them to get it back? I have no idea, but seems reasonable. That’s why I think spanking needs to be as emotionally disconnected as possible, and only be pertinent to physical pain. Sounds a bit twisted of me but..
I agree, disciplining through use of reason is ALWAYS the preferable option. However, especially with younger kids, this is not always possible. (2)
I think situationally different methods can be used. Everyone seems to like the car example brought up by ivana (2), and in that particular case (im not a parent) I wouldn’t take away a childs video games, treat, etc, but I might potentially smack them. In terms of children disrespecting parents, I think removal of video game/treat/etc is a good way to show that behaviour is not tolerable.
I think there is a case to argue that smacking children when theyre bad will give the child the idea that violence is an acceptable form of conflict resolution. I.e. two kids in the playground want the same monkey bar, so one hits the other to show them that its not okay to want my monkey bar. The other point raised here is that spanking from a parent is related to their own frustration, and this I am strongly against (obviously).
Looking back, and having been in a similar situation, I think this aspect is wrong. For a parent to reference “respect” while hitting their child, leaves me mindbogglingly confused. Respect should be mutual, and humiliating/hitting your child I don’t think should be used to create a parent/child hierarchy. IMO, spanking should be used as a punishment for bad behaviour, not fuelled by personal anger from the parent towards their child. At the same time however, it is absolutely necessary for a parent to be a disciplinarian to their kids, at all stages of childhood. Spanking can establish that, which almost entirely contradicts my last statement but oh well. What this means to me (2) is that if a child swears at his father, the mother should be the one to dole out punishment (and vice versa). Obviously this isn’t always possible.
It's time to kill this thread and thus I've written a short review on a) my opinion and experience and b) some literature regarding spanking. As an 18 year old who was spanked as a young’n, I think spanking is fine. I was spanked/smacked countless times, and I certainly hated parents bitterly for a few hours, a day, etc, but I don't think it was wrong at all in hindsight.
On the other hand, my dad beat me once badly when I was a bit older and I hated him for about two years, and didn't speak to him or acknowledge him for ~2 months (coupled with a bit of emotional abuse along the way).
Also consider that most childcare centres forbid physical punishment. It’s a pretty clear indicator that 9 times out of 10, discipline can be enforced without inflicting corporal punishment.
]
Proverbs 13:24, “He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.” Roflmao.
Contents: i) TL;DR 1) Review of Thread 2) Personal experience 3) Literature review
To clarify, I’m going to talk about spanking primarily. I have very limited experience with actual beatings, and have really only ever been hit on bottom or cuffed on ear, so that’s all I’m going to discuss.
******************** 1) Review of Thread thusfar; mind the edited quotes, I’ve tried to take out parts without altering anyones opinion, for sake of brevity (a completely futile attempt).
Being spanked while I was younger, I used to think I would never hit my child, then I thought I probably would, but with the way the worlds going rn I’ll probably go to prison if I do.
me 2000 character limit kys epicmafia, ive got forums to spam.
deletedalmost 7 years
Its ineffective as a tool, there's juste tons of better alternatives. When parents can only teach and communicate to their children via violence, its them who have issues, not the kids
