i know im late because i never play with this role but i just did and town found mafia on lylo and when i went to vote mafia (it was lylo!!) i died and mafia won like seriously?! this is the absolute WORST why can it pick mafia that's so unbalanced
Do you believe all the strong mafia roles should be nerfed as well? The point I have been trying to make is that there are stronger mafia roles, so why are you so concerned with an above average one?
Balance is relative. If closed role games were played optimally (mass claiming when there is no werewolf, claiming to clears, etc) which almost never happens, the setup would lean heavily towards the town most of the time.
In that situation I would say the current diabolist is more balanced.
In practice, changing the role to give the town clears when the mafia gets a kill would of course give more win percentage to the town.
Honestly though, it does not matter either way because sandbox cares little about balance.
Okay, since you are not listening to logical arguments I will present empirical ones, maybe those will be more up your alley.
You say you almost never play with diabolist. I have played with diabolist a lot both before and after the nerf (I used to have role prob on it).
It is very similar to voodoo in how it plays out in practice. If you randomly select targets with no thought or strategy you will on average get less than 1 kill a game.
If you are smart about you targets you can increase these odds. At best I'd say about 2 kills a game on average, which is good for a mafia role, but I would not say overpowered or even the best.
I would say on average voodoo is slightly harder to pull off, but more untraceable since it does not get any information away about who the lethal vote was.
Both of these roles have the weakness of not doing anything if they die/the target dies, which happens a fair amount.
In my experience prosecutor is far and above the best mafia role in closed setups. The amount of times you can force the win just by having an extra vote is huge.
your points are all "these other roles suck too, so apply an obvious solution to this one which I can't deny is one of the most overpowered mafia roles even if I won't say THE most"
I'm leaving out santa and blacksmith because those apply to both roles and cancel out
the only role that gets more consistent kills is hitman, which is also overpowered since it can strongkill (unless that's been fixed), but it's nonmeeting which is a massive disadvantage
I have made plenty of points, but when you choose to ignore all of them and continue to spout that diabolist can get untraceable kills everyday in a realistic scenario the conversation goes nowhere.
poisoner (the STRONGEST, most OVERPOWERED mafia role before these new ones) can be stopped by saving roles, like you said. you basically said "you're right, poisoner is weaker" without realizing it because I guess you forgot day kills can't be docced
and neither yak nor illusionist can get more than one extra kill per game. illusionist can get a new gun if there's a butterfly, but that's highly situational and not a part of the role itself. yak simply can't because it's literally dead after so wtf are you smoking
You are blatantly ignoring the fact that the vest majority of games will not be magical christmasland where diabolist gets a kill everyday without baiting anyone.
Yes its a very strong role when it gets kills everyday. No it will not get kills everyday "without a trace" often enough to be the best role.
you're really bent on defending a meeting mafia role that gets free daily unprotectable kills and can actually make town lose the game for VOTING MAFIA and I think at this point you just don't want to go back on all this bs that this is a good thing
I have already discussed why I think several mafia roles are stronger than diabolist. You responded with a list without much discussion to it. There is nowhere else for this discussion to go.
sorry, what? if fab knives actually work, that's a blaring bug and not how the role was designed to work
and i don't see you arguing about diabolist being the top overpowered mafia role, i just see this side discussion about how you think fab is supposed to hand out working fabricated items as a cheap attempt to avoid it
you're making a giant mistake by assuming i don't know these roles after all these years
as someone who's played sandbox for 5 years here's a descending list of the most powerful mafia roles. all of these roles turn the whole game around with minimal effort. ordered not only by the effects of what they can do but the actual chances/rate of doing it
So if I recall and observed correctly, the voodoo is not 50% chance but it is now case sensitive so you have to predict if the person will capitalize the first letter, all caps it, or w/e...and idk if yesb will work, I also think it has to be more exact..??
Anyway diab is OP especially since if it dies at night, the diab effect carries on a day after meaning if diab dies and is on maf partner in a 3-way, town can't win.
You are making a mistake by judging a roles power by its maximum strength, not its average strength.
Poisoner, and Fabricator can get almost guaranteed kills every day unless there's a doc. Prosecutor starts off with the voting power of two mafia.
These are roles that will always be good, without a role that counters them, which is why I listed them as the most powerful.
Illusionist and Yak get 1 guaranteed extra kill per game (they can get more, but I am talking about on average).
Voodoo Lady and Diabolist fall under the category of mafia who have situational kills. They can get a kill every day, but they can also get no kills. Interceptor, Witch, Associate etc go here.
To judge roles in the third category you have to look at how often they can achieve their situational kill.
As I said earlier and you ignored, diabolist is not actually likely to get a "random" kill each day. They can increase their odds of getting a kill in two ways, by putting the lethal vote on mafia, or by baiting their target into votting.
you recall incorrectly, that would be abysmal. voodoo searches for Word characters (0-9A-Za-z) and ignores all non-word characters (punctuation, spacing, etc.)
poisoner is the defacto strongest pre-2016 mafia role
fabricator is very well balanced by reveals and when using guns outlives its usefulness after a single death. it's particularly useful for deception where it's strategic and not outright adding kills
prosecutor and filibuster are wildly unbalanced, pretty much equal to diabolist. they're all overpowered and hand mafia the win. filibuster is slightly less unbalanced only because it can be countered by meta
yakuza is one of the most perfectly balanced mafia roles in the game. it doesn't just add a new mafia, it sacrifices an old one, making its use strictly strategic and not just free kills
illusionist is an overpowered sniper but relative to diabolist which can kill EVERY DAY it's a peashooter. yes, you were right about illusionist being strong, and yet diabolist is even more overpowered
