Epicmafia

How to make maf lose when cop n1'd

over 9 years

In fancy pants if cop dies n1, you can just nl until meteor.

Have players 1, 2, & 3 vote player 4. Then have player 5 & 6 vote player 3. Wait for timer to run out. Have 1 person kick.

Player 4 then has 2 options. He can vote player 3 and force meteor or he can self vote and die. Because he is the one being lynched if he is town he can legally force meteor. Meteor is only GT if you are not faced with an autolose situation. If player 4 is village then, its not gt since he has no possible way to win.

However if player 4 is maf, he then must self vote since he isnt in an autolose scenario.

Either way, mafia will lose. You may argue "but if meteor is drawn town loses too" and you are correct. But mafia wont be down with this strategy. You'll figure out who they are before the votes ever get locked.

I give you all this strategy because I came up with it 3 weeks ago and have been reported 3 times in roughly 5 games when this has happened. The first time I was not given a violation for this strategy. The mod said they were discussing it with the admin and although it is unfair to maf it is within the rules. I was reported yesterday and given a vio today from another report. This is inconsistency within the moderating team and if I was given the OK to do this approach by one mod I'd like to think others wouldnt give me vios for something I was told was ok.

What do you guys think? Is this OGI? Is using the rules to your advantage really OGI? Are not rules a part of the game itself?

deletedover 9 years

Congratulations packidy, You have inadvertently made Fancy Pants more watered down than it already is

packidy

over 9 years

hedger says

packidy just shut up honestly

I made this to open up a discussion. Thats the purpose of a forum. To tell people to shut up is counterproductive to the intrinsic value of the forum.

Jaleb

over 9 years

tl;dr: Mechanic abuse to make it seem like it's alright for town not to lynch even when they can win with a 6 then 4 pr state and there is a pr to lead. Right

packidy

over 9 years

1) At day start the text says meteor will kill everyone. It doesnt say it'll kill just town. If meteor is at night then the pr and the maf have to make sure someone dies (if doc saves everyone loses) So its either on day or night, not one set of people.
2) k
3) So on meteor if pr tells everyone to self/cross and then it gets kicked those players are all TECHNICALLY "risking" meteor since the pr could misclick or purposely force meteor by self-voting or voting no one. So of course theres always a chance of risking meteor. But this guy is your fos and according to the rules he must self.
4) You are stuck on the mindset that forcing meteor is gt. If we cant get you past that then this argument will never go anywhere.
5) They arent breaking any rules. As I said, the votes happened to be kicked so its all on player 4 and not them.
6)Mafia cant blitz in this scenario. If they try to blitz before someone kicks the timer will go back up to its original time. You're wrong because town still has the ability to force a nl. Thats the benefit of it. Mafia has lost their advantage because p4 can force meteor. That is a threat against the mafia that are so close to winning. They will scumtell when it comes down to this. If p4 is blue, they'll know meteor will be forced so they'll scumtell, I assure you. Its not textbook gamethrowing or textbook grs. You seriously need to read the meteor rule. If p4 is blue he has 2 options. Make his team lose by self voting (THIS IS GT) or make everyone lose by splitting the votes (This is not GT, read the rule, seriously).

MattHelders

over 9 years

everyone who plays fancy pants loses, my friends.

Giga13

over 9 years

packidy says

Giga13 says

They can choose to NK. Town has to lynch. The meteor is on them. Forcing it is Gamethrowing since you are not forced with autoloss. That's all.

Meteor doesnt go on to one set of people. Its not on town or mafia. Meteor is on everyone.

Incorrect. In the situation we're talking about, it's on town. How can it be on town at night, or on Mafia during the day?

The players all have free will in this game.

Yeah to the extent of the rules sure

To go against the pr is not gamethrowing (especially when you dont trust the pr's ability).

If you risk the chance of forcing meteor by doing it, then it is.

When the players cross votes as the pr says this is not the pr gamethrowing.

If they're breaking the meteor rule by doing it, then it is

They are choosing to vote that way on their own. So the pr is not forcing anything. Hes not forcing meteor. Hes not forcing gamthrowing. But once the votes are kicked, its now on player 4. He CAN force meteor if and only if he is blue because the majority of votes are on him. If he is lynched town will lose. That is autolose. Meteor rule states its not gt to force meteor if you are in autolose.

Once you lost, you lost. If mafia successfully blitz on a meteor, you can't not let mafia win because you lost as town; Mafia have gained the advantage for town to not be able to NL or to force NL, before or after kicks. Since they have blitzed, they have therefore earned their win. Forcing NL in that spot has the same effect as Game Related Suiciding on autoloss actually since the game goes unranked during autoloss. That's literally textbook Gamethrowing via meteor, that's part of what the meteor rule is meant to prevent, you're wrong and I'm sorry.

hedger

over 9 years

packidy just shut up honestly

packidy

over 9 years

Hibiki says

packidy says

There is no wifom oracle can do. The game ends on d4 with meteor or continues with a proper lynch. If a blue is lynched it goes to n5 but mafia can kill pr or in blues. No wifom can save them. It is autolose. Plus once the votes are kicked the game is in player 4's hands, not the oracles so the oracle can do this.

but the "oracle" could be lying - they could be doc or bomb. the blue doesn't know they are oracle for sure

That has nothing to do with it. If i am oracle (whether you believe me or not) we are at an autoloss if we lynch wrong.

packidy

over 9 years

Giga13 says

They can choose to NK. Town has to lynch. The meteor is on them. Forcing it is Gamethrowing since you are not forced with autoloss. That's all.

Meteor doesnt go on to one set of people. Its not on town or mafia. Meteor is on everyone. The players all have free will in this game. To go against the pr is not gamethrowing (especially when you dont trust the pr's ability). When the players cross votes as the pr says this is not the pr gamethrowing. They are choosing to vote that way on their own. So the pr is not forcing anything. Hes not forcing meteor. Hes not forcing gamthrowing. But once the votes are kicked, its now on player 4. He CAN force meteor if and only if he is blue because the majority of votes are on him. If he is lynched town will lose. That is autolose. Meteor rule states its not gt to force meteor if you are in autolose.

Giga13

over 9 years

packidy says

Giga13 says

packidy says

Its not gamethrowing, player 4 is your fos. You are leading the votes onto him. This just has an exit plan in case hes not maf in which case he would legally force meteor since its autolose.

You cannot make people intentionally NL instead of voting their fos. If player 4 is town and he forces NL on Meteor, he threw. Simple. He has to selfvote otherwise he threw by forcing meteor. If he's town, Mafia have earned their win (or their chance at it depending on the PR; that is however is irrelevant to my point).

No he can NL. "Forcing a draw (meteor) when you are not faced with an autolose situation falls under this category as well, since lynching/killing would give you a chance to win." He isn't gting.

He isn't faced with autoloss.....

Hibiki

over 9 years

packidy says

There is no wifom oracle can do. The game ends on d4 with meteor or continues with a proper lynch. If a blue is lynched it goes to n5 but mafia can kill pr or in blues. No wifom can save them. It is autolose. Plus once the votes are kicked the game is in player 4's hands, not the oracles so the oracle can do this.

but the "oracle" could be lying - they could be doc or bomb. the blue doesn't know they are oracle for sure

packidy

over 9 years

Giga13 says

packidy says

Its not gamethrowing, player 4 is your fos. You are leading the votes onto him. This just has an exit plan in case hes not maf in which case he would legally force meteor since its autolose.

You cannot make people intentionally NL instead of voting their fos. If player 4 is town and he forces NL on Meteor, he threw. Simple. He has to selfvote otherwise he threw by forcing meteor. If he's town, Mafia have earned their win (or their chance at it depending on the PR; that is however is irrelevant to my point).

No he can NL. "Forcing a draw (meteor) when you are not faced with an autolose situation falls under this category as well, since lynching/killing would give you a chance to win." He isn't gting.

Giga13

over 9 years

packidy says

Giga13 says

Meteor is designed for sides to not NL/NK into eternity, not so that it can be exploited in this fashion which is again, technically Gamethrowing

I said this earlier, if this strategy becomes a common strat for people then mafia wont risk it and they will kill n4 to prevent getting scumread. This will prevent the meteor bs in the first place.

They can choose to NK. Town has to lynch. The meteor is on them. Forcing it is Gamethrowing since you are not forced with autoloss. That's all.

Giga13

over 9 years

packidy says

Its not gamethrowing, player 4 is your fos. You are leading the votes onto him. This just has an exit plan in case hes not maf in which case he would legally force meteor since its autolose.

You cannot make people intentionally NL instead of voting their fos. If player 4 is town and he forces NL on Meteor, he threw. Simple. He has to selfvote otherwise he threw by forcing meteor. If he's town, Mafia have earned their win (or their chance at it depending on the PR; that is however is irrelevant to my point).

hedger

over 9 years

packidy says

Its not gamethrowing, player 4 is your fos. You are leading the votes onto him. This just has an exit plan in case hes not maf in which case he would legally force meteor since its autolose.

he will legally force meteor making you lose anyway......

You're just saying "I'm salty we will make mafia lose as well" that has no impact on town. Town loss - Mafia win is no different to a Town loss - Mafia loss from a town POV.

packidy

over 9 years

Giga13 says

Meteor is designed for sides to not NL/NK into eternity, not so that it can be exploited in this fashion which is again, technically Gamethrowing

I said this earlier, if this strategy becomes a common strat for people then mafia wont risk it and they will kill n4 to prevent getting scumread. This will prevent the meteor bs in the first place.

packidy

over 9 years

Its not gamethrowing, player 4 is your fos. You are leading the votes onto him. This just has an exit plan in case hes not maf in which case he would legally force meteor since its autolose.

Giga13

over 9 years

Meteor is designed for sides to not NL/NK into eternity, not so that it can be exploited in this fashion which is again, technically Gamethrowing

In fact, I've also been arguing that forcing no action in Must Act and forcing no lynch in Must Lynch should be illegal too (otherwise what is the point of these game options when they can be abused) but that hasn't been discussed yet really

Giga13

over 9 years

You can't legally force meteor unless it's autoloss so this is Gamethrowing since you're not trying to win by doing it. You're risking losing by attempting to lynch somebody based on a roulette-like exploit of the meteor mechanic and that will not be tolerated not only in Fancy Pants, but in any setup.

packidy

over 9 years

There is no wifom oracle can do. The game ends on d4 with meteor or continues with a proper lynch. If a blue is lynched it goes to n5 but mafia can kill pr or in blues. No wifom can save them. It is autolose. Plus once the votes are kicked the game is in player 4's hands, not the oracles so the oracle can do this.

Hibiki

over 9 years

packidy says

Hibiki says

town are not guaranteed to lose if blue is lynched. bomb and doctor exist.

True, so I should make an amendment to the strategy so that only oracle can do this (gs would have likely gunned one of the previous nights while mafia nk'd).

But if that is the case, then why was I given a vio? Basically I tricked the mafia into thinking what I was saying was true but in reality it wasnt since I was bomb. So I tricked the mafia (thats the point of the game, to trick ppl in order to win) and I got a vio because of it.

oracle still can't do this because the oracle can lie/wifom in order to die as bomb/save and the blue can't know this for sure

packidy

over 9 years

Anthony says

Clears could always, I don't know, lead a lynch on lylo

You've made several posts and have yet to actually give a productive comment on the strategy. So if you have something pertinent to say rather than insults, that'd be great.

deletedover 9 years

There does not appear to be a contradiction in the rules, except that loss is not guaranteed for a blue if doctor or bomb is alive, thereby forcing them to selfvote as well, since they really cannot know what the pr role is. At that point, it is no different than lynching someone, but with a great potential for confusion on the part of the person being lynched who can just force meteor out of saltiness. That being said, it sounds like an interesting reaction test. It should not be reportable. However, the obvious solution is to play better setups that don't lend themselves to such meta rule contortions being legitimate plays.

Eedis

over 9 years

Honestly, I hate when games go unranked, it was a complete waste of my time. I would rather take the loss and have played a fair game than to completely waste all of my time on a game that went unranked. I am not saying this strat is reportable, it is actually a very clever strat, I love it, but I would be against it's use in a game that I am in.

I'm that player that pings others D1 when cop dies N1 as a blue. ;)

enigmaticmonarch

over 9 years

Murica says

This is NOT reportable. You did not break the game, you just outsmarted the way people are currently playing it. That's how strategy works, somebody figures out a superior way, and everyone adapts to it. It's constant evolution.