My main gripe with FP is that you can literally join games and self vote and you'll still end up with a positive w/l ratio. This isn't speculation, go do it. The fact that you reliably win as town with no skill other than following the ingrained pointfarming tactics that come with prolonged play of the setup is why it's currently 53% townsided. If people were mastering how to succeed at the site as a whole and not just FP, the setup could be in the high 60% and you can see this in players that have no clue what to do when a PR dies, but maintain a 60% win ratio with FP as their primary setup. FP can exist as a pointfarm but it can't include the gunsmith setup because that's what's keeping mafia from being able to do anything reliably in the setup.
The setup was made to pointfarm and the behaviors you adapt playing this setup currently plague the site in so far as people don't know how to lynch mafia in auto win scenarios, don't know how to or realize that they should be identifying both town and mafia in every game they play, and will go out of their way to try and setup hammers for the clear in lieu of putting effort into winning games for themselves. These are the most prevailing of them but they are vast and will require a full scale restructuring of how this functions in order to solve.
Mods need to take the game seriously
They currently don't. They take their handling of the community seriously, but I don't think any of the mods currently think about the impact of their verdicts based on the outcome of games, but solely from a vio or no vio perspective and this needs to stop.
We need the mods to do more than just vio/no vio if we're going to have any meaningful change. This isn't an assault on people for being bad at the game as a whole. If I've learned anything from coming back to this site, it's that I can't hold people responsible for things they've never been subjected to such as competition, role models, and the game being played in a way that isn't corrupted by pointfarming. To this end pointfarming behaviors need to be eradicated through the use of the report system. This starts with ISP, we currently have a mod appealing an ISP report and even though I haven't read the game, I feel for what he typed in the appeal. You shouldn't be forced to play around people that are going to do the minimum required to not get a violation. The process of reading the game and outing your opinions on people's alignment shouldn't be a rarity, it should happen every game.
This is a good transition to include playing to win. Playing to win doesn't include waiting for the clear to play the game for you. It doesn't include contributing nothing but filler and omgus until the clear is ready to vote. Playing to win means that in any game from a player you spectate you see them putting forth effort into achieving their win condition. This is a rare quality in the current meta and it's why few people take this game seriously. This needs to be a requirement because "FP" has stripped this from the average player.
There should be no love for a setup that has replaces mafia play with vote simulation. There's literally no reason to allow vote simulation to kill off people's ability to find success in non-pointfarms.
I've seen that it's possible to make both FP and comp players forgo clear pandering for individual based play, but it's restricted to me rolling PR or having a decent person roll PR. More people need to get on board and resist the self vote meta in favor of making unclears convince other unclears to act.
I've won/lost games where mafia convinced an unclear to vote in their favor, it was possible before I left the site now it's almost impossible. I'm not saying every game should come down to this, but I do believe it should be gamethrowing to ask for self votes and mishammer. Instituting this would make bad clears less likely to rush to throw games away in favor of letting every person at the table have a chance to be complicit in the outcome.
That's not the end all be all of ISP. Sure if you think of it like that from a rule perspective it might be, but if the core of your play in a game consists of shouting at someone to self vote when they're actively playing, you're just skating the ISP violation by spamming. You've confirmed this through your own actions.
I don't narrow down ISP to just not speaking. Your participation in game has value and if it doesn't something should be done about it. Right or wrong, it's people refusing to be either that's keeping this site in its vegetative state. This coupled with my part about playing to win are what I'm after as far as ISP is concerned.
FP would be decent if the gun setup wasn't in it. You'd actually be able to tell the worth of a player that can win in it since mafia would be free to act without instantly getting lynched for it. The whole reason this thread isn't "get rid of FP" is because I understand that current meta needs to be shifted through mod actions and nothing short of that will result in anything meanful.
It's true, I'm targetting specific symptoms in the OP, but a fix MUST occur for these if before even looking for/at the root causes. None of what you suggested would result in long term change, they have to occur IN-GAME. People regard you as one of the best players and nothing you've suggested helped you get there.
People don't care on a game to game basis and they're not improving. How can they when they're better off not caring and going with the flow since that will result in a 53% win rate. I'm honestly curious how a non gs FP would work out with the pointfarming community, they might find that the games are increasingly harder as mafia are free to be creative without fear of throwing games for attempting it.
The end result for any change needs to make it so that there's no difference between gold and red hearts. There shouldn't currently be one. Most of the comp players in any era were casual players, however there shouldn't be low stakes mafia crowding out all other forms of ranked play on this site.
deletedover 9 years
i thought his point was that fancypants meta is corrupting comp because it encourages ISP in more advanced setups when you learn how to play in a pointfarmy setup.
which yeah, maybe it is but if you report these people who are playing like this, they get violations, and i sort of thought universal implied they aren't? anyway, like you pointed out, giving vios is about all we have the ability to do with the way the site is set up.
deletedover 9 years
He's saying it's a problem with fancy pants and that he also doesn't enjoy playing fancy pants and you're essentially getting on him for not playing more fancy pants in an effort to clean it up
deletedover 9 years
i'm willing to admit i'm a little stupid at times, but i'm having trouble not thinking zovea is a bit off-base here about the ISP moderation thing considering he's only filed two ISP reports his entire time back.
Zovea, I totally understand your points about not liking the self-vote meta and stuff, hell I'm even with you on that, but players who refuse to give any reads and just selfvote for clear right away are absolutely receiving violations.
deletedover 9 years
I misunderstood
deletedover 9 years
that was a report on him, not a report filed by him.
or did i forget to breath again and im not understanding something?
I'm worried by how much I agree with Zovea given how he's vilified by most of the forum community.
Then I remember they like Pranay and have no brains and I'm OK again.
deletedover 9 years
To be fair one was universally overturned
deletedover 9 years
The fact that there's a 1500 point entry barrier to comp and you more or less have to play FP to get to comp is the issue he's referring to, I think. If you try to play comp games the same way you play fancy pants you'll get run off the site. His solution is to change fancy pants, which is wrong, but there is a solution out there somewhere to bridge the gap between red heart and gold heart
deletedover 9 years
is my point really that difficult for you to understand, universalstudios? you're complaining that moderators don't give enough ISP vios, and yet both instances where you've seen fit to report for ISP, moderators have agreed and given a violation.
FP fills fast, that's why it works. The two main reasons I joined these games were achievements and how fast it filled. There are no advanced skills but it's just a red heart. The ISP problem is not different from A&D which was comped. I don't get why menopaused people are on repeat about it, most of players are just here to play 30minutes a day, to have some fun. Why do you want to remove that? They will win easy games, so what? It allows people to practice on ccs, and some prs. It's basic but that's a beginning. I don't mind seeing bad people with 55% winrate. Once you stop looking at other stats, it's better. Trophies and winrate mean , that's 50% luck most of the time. Just focus on your own games, even on comp some clears leave hammer to unclears to get a free win without a single effort, so yeah.
If you blacklist FP, the GS/hooker will be the new FP. FP has become famous since reverse was blacklisted. That's the way it goes.
Do you have trouble breathing? Most of the things you post make me think that you wake up in the middle of the night in a panic because you forgot to breath.
deletedover 9 years
Since you've been back on the site you've reported for ISP a grand total of twice, and both of them have resulted in violations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
deletedover 9 years
Red heart and gold heart are completely different worlds and there's not really anything on the site that lets players trying to make the jump know that, aside from getting screamed at in gold heart games. You can't make casual players care more and you can't make competitive players less hostile.
I think a FAQ/tutorial type deal that explains the differences in skill and style would do wonders if we could get people to read it but short of plastering it all over their screens I'm not sure how we could do it.
