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Training Lobby Change Proposals

Bumpers
over 10 years

Hi training lobby. I haven’t properly introduced myself here but you’ll know TheBrontosaurus well as your lobby owner. One of the things we want to improve on EpicMafia considerably is the harmony and synergy of other lobbies, and give players old and new many different ventures on the site.

One of the stumbling blocks that we have is finding a way to keep training running the way it is, whilst also not making it exploited by point farming with new users who wish to play the game.

I’ve made a thread in competitive which I hope you take time to look at too which has more ideas that can make their way to this lobby, it can be found here.

https://epicmafia.com/topic/63209

So what are the ideas that we have for training?

1) Lobby rename

One issue that’s easy to notice with training is that it has lost its meaning for most of the players in this lobby. We don’t wish to splinter another lobby for new players only, but would like to rename it to something more appropriate. At the moment the leading name is Casual, but I realize that there is an online stigma behind this. If you can think of better names, please let us know.

2) 10K points cap

One of the problems with training is users using it to farm up points. There’s been a lot of aggressive suggestions on how to fix this, one method we had very long ago was forcing people to join comp lobby once they reached a certain threshold. We do not want that to happen again, but we also do not want point farming by playing with newer users.

What does this mean if implemented? It means that once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have. We think this is a generous amount to deter point-farming, but you are still fully free to play in the lobby unrestricted if you wish. Stats and other achievements will still be viable and tracked.

3) Greater input with moderators

One bias we notice is how most new moderators are picked from competitive. We realize that most mods have been picked from the comp lobby in the past, however we certainly want to embrace new variation when we look for new moderators in the certain future. If you’re ever interested in being one, feel free to PM an application for it to be reviewed.

Finishing notes

I realize this might look like a forced attempt to boost competitive player numbers. Partially, it is, but I hope you check out the comp thread too if you would like to see more information.There are news ideas in that thread that will be added to training too. Please give any feedback you have, thanks again.

payamcf
over 10 years

Connor says

as a comp lobby douche i can testify that people who OGI & meta suck


I just don't get why the mods are trying to push up the comp lobby so much... comp/lobby are just two different places get over it. Everything (points/kudos/stats) is already separated so you can't compare someone with high points in training to someone with high points in comp. Hence, I don't see the logic behind the new idea.
Clair
over 10 years
as a comp lobby douche i can testify that people who OGI & meta suck
payamcf
over 10 years

TweIve says


payamcf says


Jupiter says


Jupiter says

They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.



This line is supposed to read "which I know can feel a little unwelcoming." My bad.

Also @payamcf, that attitude isn't really condoned by any of the mod or most competitive players, and the most I can really say about that is most comp players aren't like that. Just like nobody forces you to play with pranay, nobody's going to force you to play in comp if/after the changes go through. We're just trying to encourage everyone to give comp a try, because it's only as intimidating as you want it to be.


I get your point, personally I couldn't care less about trying comp lobby since I did it already. Even if the 10k point cap get's implemented I wouldn't move to comp lobby since I don't care that much about points i'm here for fun. But one question, you are saying that "once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have." but as my understanding I still will be able to join ranked games as usual right? If so, don't you think this is unfair to the other players below 10k? I mean I could easily throw the game against someone, or mishammer someone who I hate since the game is somehow unranked for me while it's ranked for them :/


Training games are moderated for game related vios though, so you can't really throw. (Unless you're talking about doing it without making it blatant in which case you're a douche.)


pfft as if there are no douches here around. I can assure you that 80-90% of the no avi suiciders/GTers/trolls etc are pro players using a new account to throw. Most of the throwers aren't stupid since they know the game mechanism and they know what to do in order to GT. Hence, those douches will obviously misuse this system.
TweIve
over 10 years

payamcf says


Jupiter says


Jupiter says

They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.



This line is supposed to read "which I know can feel a little unwelcoming." My bad.

Also @payamcf, that attitude isn't really condoned by any of the mod or most competitive players, and the most I can really say about that is most comp players aren't like that. Just like nobody forces you to play with pranay, nobody's going to force you to play in comp if/after the changes go through. We're just trying to encourage everyone to give comp a try, because it's only as intimidating as you want it to be.


I get your point, personally I couldn't care less about trying comp lobby since I did it already. Even if the 10k point cap get's implemented I wouldn't move to comp lobby since I don't care that much about points i'm here for fun. But one question, you are saying that "once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have." but as my understanding I still will be able to join ranked games as usual right? If so, don't you think this is unfair to the other players below 10k? I mean I could easily throw the game against someone, or mishammer someone who I hate since the game is somehow unranked for me while it's ranked for them :/


Training games are moderated for game related vios though, so you can't really throw. (Unless you're talking about doing it without making it blatant in which case you're a douche.)
Bumpers
over 10 years
You'll be able to join ranked games as usual, we really don't want to force people to another lobby if they don't want to go, it's just to fix the point farming issue. If you don't care about points and just want to play in training, there should be no impact for you. You'll still can still earn achievements and stats will still be tracked.
payamcf
over 10 years

Jupiter says


Jupiter says

They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.



This line is supposed to read "which I know can feel a little unwelcoming." My bad.

Also @payamcf, that attitude isn't really condoned by any of the mod or most competitive players, and the most I can really say about that is most comp players aren't like that. Just like nobody forces you to play with pranay, nobody's going to force you to play in comp if/after the changes go through. We're just trying to encourage everyone to give comp a try, because it's only as intimidating as you want it to be.


I get your point, personally I couldn't care less about trying comp lobby since I did it already. Even if the 10k point cap get's implemented I wouldn't move to comp lobby since I don't care that much about points i'm here for fun. But one question, you are saying that "once you reach 10000 points in Training/New name pending, you won’t earn more points for future wins you have." but as my understanding I still will be able to join ranked games as usual right? If so, don't you think this is unfair to the other players below 10k? I mean I could easily throw the game against someone, or mishammer someone who I hate since the game is somehow unranked for me while it's ranked for them :/
Bumpers
over 10 years

payamcf says

I played around 80 games in comp. 75 out of 80 was based on meta and OGI, if I was maf i'd get insta lynched D1 even without talkin 1 word since I n1'd someone who no one else would n1 in that crowd. Everyone thinks they're good but ironically they're equally bad. Just look at pranay's comment in comp forum "point payout thing is fine because it does not make a difference. people are noob even at 10k points." ... He's calling everyone noob with at 48/48 pie rate... how do you expect me to enjoy a game playing with a bunch of overconfident nerds like him.. so no thanks.


I've seen 'overconfident nerds' come and go on my time of 7 years here, it can safely be disregarded. Look at the lobby chat of training, I see the same things there.

This is the exact stigma we want to shatter. The only place for trophies became a closed off environment of a few, and this is exactly what we want to break. Every lobby has people proclaiming themselves as good, and others namecalling others as bad, yet giving more exposure to other lobbies by fixing a lingering problem here gives me confidence that it can be silenced.
Jupiter
over 10 years

Jupiter says

They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.



This line is supposed to read "which I know can feel a little unwelcoming." My bad.

Also @payamcf, that attitude isn't really condoned by any of the mod or most competitive players, and the most I can really say about that is most comp players aren't like that. Just like nobody forces you to play with pranay, nobody's going to force you to play in comp if/after the changes go through. We're just trying to encourage everyone to give comp a try, because it's only as intimidating as you want it to be.

I'm going to head off for the night. I normally don't post in the training forums, but I think this is a good cause and I want to clear up any misconceptions with it or negativity towards it. These changes are meant to help everyone, but in order to do that we'll need some cooperation from everybody.
payamcf
over 10 years
I played around 80 games in comp. 75 out of 80 was based on meta and OGI, if I was maf i'd get insta lynched D1 even without talkin 1 word since I n1'd someone who no one else would n1 in that crowd. Everyone thinks they're good but ironically they're equally bad. Just look at pranay's comment in comp forum "point payout thing is fine because it does not make a difference. people are noob even at 10k points." ... He's calling everyone noob with at 48/48 pie rate... how do you expect me to enjoy a game playing with a bunch of overconfident nerds like him.. so no thanks.
Bumpers
over 10 years

Jupiter says

That's honestly one of the worst misconceptions this site has. The comp lobby has jerks, just like the training lobby, sandbox, /v/, and the rest of the site. The purpose of these changes is (somewhat obviously) to make the gap between the two lobbies less drastic, and that doesn't have to be such a big change. Sure, the comp lobby players aren't always that welcoming, but that's because they treat new players like they treat everyone else. They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.

These changes are to emphasize that there's really no difference between comp lobby and training lobby besides the names. Hopefully after these changes go through you'll be able to play as much classic mafia red heart games as you want in comp or whatever it'll be called, and then go on to play higher level setups too. I think after the initial shock and awe the changes will be for the better.

Also sorry if that wasn't very coherent, it's 4:30 AM.


Bumping from page 2, shouldn't be overlooked.
Bumpers
over 10 years
The 10K point cap is a soft cap, meaning you can still play in training when you reach or are higher than this point amount. No one is being forced to play in another lobby, it's there to stop point farming.

It can also be used for other lobby ventures, comp isn't the only lobby that will contain ranked games. The idea is to have training for training, but if you don't want to move you're not forced to.

Regarding the comp community, I know how abrasive it is for most people in training. Part of this idea and the reforms coming to comp/ranked is to help tackle that too. If you do not have a good experience when the changes come in, please let us know.
Jupiter
over 10 years
That's honestly one of the worst misconceptions this site has. The comp lobby has jerks, just like the training lobby, sandbox, /v/, and the rest of the site. The purpose of these changes is (somewhat obviously) to make the gap between the two lobbies less drastic, and that doesn't have to be such a big change. Sure, the comp lobby players aren't always that welcoming, but that's because they treat new players like they treat everyone else. They assume everyone in the lobby is somewhat competent enough to handle the higher level of mafia play there, which I can feel a little unwelcoming.

These changes are to emphasize that there's really no difference between comp lobby and training lobby besides the names. Hopefully after these changes go through you'll be able to play as much classic mafia red heart games as you want in comp or whatever it'll be called, and then go on to play higher level setups too. I think after the initial shock and awe the changes will be for the better.

Also sorry if that wasn't very coherent, it's 4:30 AM.
payamcf
over 10 years
Most of the comp players are arrogant pink fonted losers who just love to spam. So even if you change the point system you can't force people to move there since the community is bad. EM is A FREE ONLINE GAME, who cares about points it's not like I can convert it to money or something.
Jupiter
over 10 years
I like the name "Starter Lobby" a lot, so props to ever suggest that. Competitive Lobby can be named something to better suit that. Something like "Standard Lobby."
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years
Most likely, a lot of this is speculation. These are structural changes and mostly come down to what lucid decides.

Mentoring would likely be the same, the lobby structure would just be different.
TheVigil
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says


TheVigil says

I don't know what to think about this post. After i gained around 8.000 points i joined the comp lobby for a short term and was met with nothing but hostility. I don't believe there should be a cap as many people consider this there very own lobby where they don't have to deal with the comp lobby's elitist. I guess if you were to make players like me go to comp you would have to ensure a decent lobby environment.


Yeah, that's a major problem too. Some players in comp can be very mean to newer players, which is why the community has shrunk so much over time.

I think though if training played there more it'd drown it out and give people exposure to better setups and players overall. The site would improve from a skill standpoint.

@Jack; Yeah, almost every setup in Training that is played is basically a townfarm unfortunately. Those setups in any other lobby would have higher town payouts.


True, Would there still be a training lobby for the -10k players? And how would mentoring work with this. Will it remain the same?
thebrontosaurus
over 10 years

TheVigil says

I don't know what to think about this post. After i gained around 8.000 points i joined the comp lobby for a short term and was met with nothing but hostility. I don't believe there should be a cap as many people consider this there very own lobby where they don't have to deal with the comp lobby's elitist. I guess if you were to make players like me go to comp you would have to ensure a decent lobby environment.


Yeah, that's a major problem too. Some players in comp can be very mean to newer players, which is why the community has shrunk so much over time.

I think though if training played there more it'd drown it out and give people exposure to better setups and players overall. The site would improve from a skill standpoint.

@Jack; Yeah, almost every setup in Training that is played is basically a townfarm unfortunately. Those setups in any other lobby would have higher town payouts.
jack
over 10 years
Personally not a fan of the 10k cap, do people really farm that much anymore in training? Idk I haven't played a lot since reverse was BL'd, speaking of "point farming." Other than that I think training would still pretty much remain the same with the new changes
TheVigil
over 10 years
I don't know what to think about this post. After i gained around 8.000 points i joined the comp lobby for a short term and was met with nothing but hostility. I don't believe there should be a cap as many people consider this there very own lobby where they don't have to deal with the comp lobby's elitist. I guess if you were to make players like me go to comp you would have to ensure a decent lobby environment other wise your going to lose a lot of the newer player base.
TweIve
over 10 years

Lucy says

Sorry for the crappy edit (safe link) but here's an idea of something that makes more sense for the newbies.

http://i.imgur.com/7Qo3d9c.png


Beginners is the same as training, and expert is even more intimidating than competition.

Training needn't be changed from it's name; it's going to be more relevant to it's name with the new implementations and there simply isn't a better replacement name. (Feel free to correct me here)
Lucy
over 10 years
Anywho, I'm off to go play my 20 games. If you need help with ideas I am really good at brainstorming. Didn't do 4 years of college for nothing! :p
Lucy
over 10 years
Sorry for the crappy edit (safe link) but here's an idea of something that makes more sense for the newbies.

http://i.imgur.com/7Qo3d9c.png
Lucy
over 10 years
And take inconsideration (You're not a new user on EpicMafia) Think about how confusing the navigation of the website is. If people can't figure out how sandbox lobby works they get a little anxious and unsure if this is the right website for them. They go to training lobby for fun ranked games that earn them points and achievements. I do agree that the title in itself "Competition Lobby" can be intimidating to new players. I was thinking you could change the names of the two lobbys based on what the skill level would be to join that lobby. I.e Beginners for Training Lobby//Intermediate or Expert for Comp. It sounds more appealing and makes more sense to me.
Lucy
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says


Katt says

But then comp will be taken over by red heart games and comp games will be hard to start. Why not just bring back ranked lobby?


The idea is that with exposure all in one lobby, tables would fill faster and people would be more inclined to join.

@Lucy; I don't think that's necessarily true - I enjoy playing comp games because they're higher quality in terms of depth than others, even if I don't have time to run for a trophy, I still enjoy getting to play certain setups.

I get what you're saying though about the hearts, linked alts aren't that inconvenient. Training games and Comp games are very different though.


However, I have tried to fill several comp games tonight gold and red games. I've only been able to fill in Gallis Hunter because everyone feels the need to play Gallis Hunter Weekend. Otherwise I have sat in games both gold and red for 5-20 minutes while people join off and on but never really filling. I don't often ever see an unranked game in the comp lobby unless it's one of the 20 people set up where people just chat.

Also, people entering comp lobby as "new player status, 1,500 pts." aren't entirely sure of learning the depths of certain setups. Some of them go into comp unaware of the mechanics and principals of each setup. (Then they are "raged" at for not understanding the setups.)

So if you want more people to join the lobby then as a site we need to figure out a way to "sell" those people into the lobby. There's about 10 things I could think of that would pull people's interest into the comp lobby. It's whether or not they are applicable to the website codes and if they are within principal.
TheFisherman
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

Training games and Comp games are very different though.


Not when I'm in them.