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Kingmaker

Clair
over 10 years

If both conditions end in a win for you, you can essentially cheat

if both conditions end in a loss for you, you can essentially throw

if your win or loss isn't defined by the conditions but someone else's is, it is a combination of both

please ban third parties

Edark
over 10 years
its should be against the rules to go for the lesser point pay out win as a thirdparty
deletedover 10 years
As long as people are playing to their win condition, I don't see the big deal.
deletedover 10 years
If, as a third party, you make yourself lose when you could have won just to make someone else lose, that is real gamethrowing/cheating.
Edark
over 10 years

Cirno says

Consistently winning games of A Lesson In Oration takes more skill than consistently winning games of B2NS


lmao
deletedover 10 years
Kingmaking is when your win condition has already been met or failed
deletedover 10 years

Connor says


Cirno says

Yea, but it isn't cheating (unless being communicated on outside the game) or throwing under any circumstance.


"or repeatedly playing with the intent for another person to win regardless of your own win condition"

kingmaking allows this, legally


"regardless of your own win condition" which isn't kingmaking
Clair
over 10 years

Cirno says

Yea, but it isn't cheating (unless being communicated on outside the game) or throwing under any circumstance.


"or repeatedly playing with the intent for another person to win regardless of your own win condition"

kingmaking allows this, legally
deletedover 10 years
Consistently winning games of A Lesson In Oration takes more skill than consistently winning games of B2NS
deletedover 10 years
Manipulating people socially to take wins takes way more individual skill than playing scumhunting roulette and hoping town doesn't suck over the course of 40 games, so it is definitely competitive in a sense.
deletedover 10 years
Competitive play is the only place where the rules are relevant, so I don't really see what you're getting at
Clair
over 10 years
i agree that it shouldn't be against the rules. however, it has no place in competitive play.
deletedover 10 years
Yea, but it isn't cheating (unless being communicated on outside the game) or throwing under any circumstance.
deletedover 10 years
Having your decision influenced by social things when your win status stays the same whether or not you pick person x or person y should never be against the rules. Ever. Because there's nothing else you can do to advance your own game. In that situation the win is usually handed to the person who plays the better social game, but you just want to discount these skills, make them irrelevant, and turn them into a case of "cheating or throwing"
Clair
over 10 years
do u understand the definition of the word "can"?
deletedover 10 years
Well, Kingmaking isn't cheating or gamethrowing, so the OP isn't fact.
Edark
over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says


Cirno says

choosing your friend to win in a kingmaker situation is arguably less against the rules than clearing 3 people off of an N1 kill, but that's perfectly acceptable meta play?


Unfortunately there are no rules against "metaclearing" yourself, although it gets pretty ridiculous where almost everyone clears themselves of an N1 kill.

"No my bae, I'd never kill him/her. I am metaclear forever. Please allow me to ISP"


:D
Clair
over 10 years
whether or not you agree that the facts in the OP are acceptable in competitive play is where the opinions lie.
Clair
over 10 years

Cirno says

True.Your point?


my point is that my opinion (individual games in a competition should not revolve around the site and its community or social aspects. it should be defined by the game itself and the actions within) and your opinion (Playing the social game to win should be acceptable in setups that involve third parties since they're way more political than the standard two-party setup.) cannot coincide, and arguing with each other about whose opinion is best is pointless


Cirno says

And this thread is your opinion.


nah the OP is fact
deletedover 10 years
True. And this thread is your opinion. Your point?
Clair
over 10 years

Cirno says

That's just wrong, though. Mafia was designed as a party game and it is inherently social. Playing the social game to win should be acceptable in setups that involve third parties since they're way more political than the standard two-party setup.


well that's your opinion
deletedover 10 years
As long as it isn't against your win condition, you aren't gamethrowing anything.
deletedover 10 years
That's just wrong, though. Mafia was designed as a party game and it is inherently social. Playing the social game to win should be acceptable in setups that involve third parties since they're way more political than the standard two-party setup.
Clair
over 10 years

Cirno says

Kingmaking isn't as black and white as cheating or throwing. It involves a complex series of brain thoughts and social strategy and game theory that can be invoked that simple people like you don't understand.


individual games in a competition should not revolve around the site and its community or social aspects. it should be defined by the game itself and the actions within
Clair
over 10 years

Cirno says


Connor says


Cirno says

if you are forced into a situation in which the outcome is the same for you no matter what it isn't possible to "throw" against anybody


U can pick someone cuz theyre running or u hate them


True. People can also pick Night 1 kills based off of the same thing


killing someone n1 doesn't guarantee their loss
deletedover 10 years
Kingmaking isn't as black and white as cheating or throwing. It involves a complex series of brain thoughts and social strategy and game theory that can be invoked that simple people like you don't understand.