Epicmafia

Training Round to Be Disabled

over 10 years

Dear Training Lobby,

I regret to inform you that I will be disabling the competition from Training Lobby after trophies are given out for this round.

Almost every round since its inception, there has been a major cheating investigation in the Training Round, some people have gotten away with it, and others have not. Participation has also waned considerably since its inception.

This does not mean the competition will be disabled permanently, but I will be disabling it for the time being. I'm hoping everyone can reconsider their actions and understand that we work very hard to keep the rounds clean, and it's simply becoming too much work for us to manage in addition to the Comp Lobby investigations (which are surprisingly less frequent).

Many of you who have won trophies in the Training competition or come close should strongly consider playing in Comp Lobby, the competition is more consistent there and the mod team is better equipped to handle issues there since competition is treated more seriously. You're all good enough to play there as well.

There is no current timetable for its return, but I will be disabling it after the round ends.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding, I am sorry it has come to this. I honestly liked the round and encouraging people to try new setups, but there have been a lot of problems associated with it so we need to give it a rest for now.

deletedover 10 years

The thing is, bront, comp revolves around reputation and out-of-game social interaction a lot more than training lobby does. Training players don't play the game for that sort of thing. I think you're hoping for a balanced blend of both when in reality it's probably going to end up one side dominating the other.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Yeah, it's not like Training and Comp have different ethnic and religious ties. It's just players on a mafia website.

nice

over 10 years

that's a bad analogy.

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

Any time you bring together different groups of people into a closed space there are struggles, but ultimately they learn to co-exist peacefully.

Ukraine and Gaza would disagree.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Howl says

If you try it and it doesn't work, would you be prepared to test the other proposed solutions after we say "told you so"?

It's probably the best for the site and the mod team, but there will be pushback. Any time you bring together different groups of people into a closed space there are struggles, but ultimately they learn to co-exist peacefully.

This really shouldn't be an issue though, it's one tab over. It's not like there are ethnic divides either. It's just two different pages on a mafia website. One Lobby to play ranked isn't going to kill anyone.

deletedover 10 years

If you try it and it doesn't work, would you be prepared to test the other proposed solutions after we say "told you so"?

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Howl says

The way I see it unfolding is that for a week or two it's slow and steady, but eventually there is a divide within the lobby itself and some players decide to split off and make their own custom lobby, taking most of the non-veteran players with them.

I doubt it, a lot of people simply play in Training because it's default and ranked. If it's not default and unranked, people will move to the easiest place to play games - Comp aka Ranked Lobby.

Reverse Mafia is also a pointfarm and worked temporarily, there hasn't been any games there in a while now since she stopped posting the games everywhere.

deletedover 10 years

The way I see it unfolding is that for a week or two it's slow and steady, but eventually there is a divide within the lobby itself and some players decide to split off and make their own custom lobby, taking most of the non-veteran players with them.

That's what lolwot did when you banned reverse mafia, and it worked.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Howl says

Plus an increase in trolling/IC/harassment, yes. Diluting comp lobby is easier said than done.

If ranked is all in one lobby, it'll be diluted very easily. Since that seems to be the only reason people don't want to play in Comp is because they don't like the people there.

deletedover 10 years

Plus an increase in trolling/IC/harassment, yes. Diluting comp lobby is easier said than done.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Empire says

Also the solution was always how 2.0 did it (One ranked lobby only, maybe add multiple pages ex. Ranked Lobby 1/2/3 in tabs due to site growth) because splitting them up was terrible to begin with but now that it's done and the communities are separated it's impossible (Or rather completely unfeasible) to recombine them.

Of course, the dawn of abc/petri/weareking and the land of infinite alts kind of ruined that idea to begin with. Back then the worst that happened was RedNose would make 3-4 accounts and call it a day. Now Training kind of acts as a barrier to prevent them from spamming comp.

I would love this personally. Training as an unranked lobby to learn the basics, have mentoring back it and help new players get familiar, and then have everyone play in Comp as the only "ranked lobby". The negative attitude that is perceived by Training players of Comp goes away since the current Comp community gets diluted. People could play red hearts there (now surrounded by more experienced people, so setups other than Classic/FP will fill) and have an active competition they can compete in that is easier to moderate.

People would also be able to learn from being around better players.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Howl says

Comp has too many issues in itself that *experienced* training players recognize as issues and therefore refuse to make the move. To count a few, there's honest meta, the focus on reputation over the game, the focus on meta (out of game influence directed at self-thought i.e. "I know Player A and he would never do this as mafia so I townread him")...

There's a plethora of issues that make comp vastly different from training, and one of the reasons you're getting resistance from making communities similar is that training players are trying to ESCAPE from the "wrong philosophy".

This happened all throughout the Training round too. The problem exists everywhere. Getting rid of the round in the Training lobby does mitigate it though.

deletedover 10 years

Empire says

Also the solution was always how 2.0 did it (One ranked lobby only, maybe add multiple pages ex. Ranked Lobby 1/2/3 in tabs due to site growth) because splitting them up was terrible to begin with but now that it's done and the communities are separated it's impossible (Or rather completely unfeasible) to recombine them.

Of course, the dawn of abc/petri/weareking and the land of infinite alts kind of ruined that idea to begin with. Back then the worst that happened was RedNose would make 3-4 accounts and call it a day. Now Training kind of acts as a barrier to prevent them from spamming comp.

agreed

deletedover 10 years

Also the solution was always how 2.0 did it (One ranked lobby only, maybe add multiple pages ex. Ranked Lobby 1/2/3 in tabs due to site growth) because splitting them up was terrible to begin with but now that it's done and the communities are separated it's impossible (Or rather completely unfeasible) to recombine them.

Of course, the dawn of abc/petri/weareking and the land of infinite alts kind of ruined that idea to begin with. Back then the worst that happened was RedNose would make 3-4 accounts and call it a day. Now Training kind of acts as a barrier to prevent them from spamming comp.

deletedover 10 years

Comp has too many issues in itself that *experienced* training players recognize as issues and therefore refuse to make the move. To count a few, there's honest meta, the focus on reputation over the game, the focus on meta (out of game influence directed at self-thought i.e. "I know Player A and he would never do this as mafia so I townread him")...

There's a plethora of issues that make comp vastly different from training, and one of the reasons you're getting resistance from making communities similar is that training players are trying to ESCAPE from the "wrong philosophy".

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

gistofeverything says

Empire says

Howl says

Back in 2011 comp lobby was still in the prime.

Back in 2011 there were ~200 people per comp.

There hasn't been much of an increase between then and now. :x

It's not the amount of players really.

All the 2011 'newbies' are now stuck in comp with no where else to go or progress - like I said, they've plateaued. Therefore it's not like having 200+ regular players per comp; it's the type of player that has changed (more experience, less tolerance in some cases, complacency, familiarity breeding contempt etc).

gistofeverything

over 10 years

Empire says

Howl says

Back in 2011 comp lobby was still in the prime.

Back in 2011 there were ~200 people per comp.

There hasn't been much of an increase between then and now. :x

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

Training has failed, MASSIVELY, as a way to move to Comp. It teaches basics, yes, but we know that it doesn't promote leaving the lobby and playing in comp.

You either unify both lobbies and have one universal lobby and universal mod team, or maintain separate lobbies but get a separate mod team - you can not to both; it does not work. While it'd be great to have the best of both worlds, it's impossible.

The communities are different but that's a fact of life - some people just won't play/get on with each other. That's not something you can change; that't a society thing.

You're fighting a non-existent battle. This magical 'unified EM' will never exist, and the sooner admin accept that, the sooner we can progress as a website and make the improvements it DESPERATELY needs to be better for everyone who uses it.

deletedover 10 years

Howl says

Back in 2011 comp lobby was still in the prime.

Back in 2011 there were ~200 people per comp.

gistofeverything

over 10 years

gistofeverything says

2-3 global moderators

That's what ^ are for.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

Satan says

thebrontosaurus says

That's all on lucid. This isn't really in my control. All I can do is choose to enable certain features and control moderation that way.

yeah, i'll talk to you on skype about it at some point, maybe you could talk to him about it like the idea i gave you the other day

Sounds good.

@Gist, if one person with a job doesn't do it, then it doesn't get done. This is a problem with separate duties.

thebrontosaurus

over 10 years

By that though, you're basically saying Training has failed as a way for new players to learn basics and move to Comp. That's training's intention and the lobbies need to be different to realize that vision.

The notion of "separate but equal" stratifies people and makes it more difficult to unify. I think that since Training and Comp are moderated by one group of moderators, it should be treated as two pieces of one idea.

What you're saying would work if the expectation wasn't for people to train in training and play seriously in comp lobby. The communities shouldn't be so different.

Letting a few salty comp players prevent you from enjoying Comp as a whole isn't really reflective of the entire lobby. More separation creates a worse divide between the two and separate moderation widens it further. I don't like it. I've been considering it as a viable solution, but I'd like to move to making them closer together, not further apart.

gistofeverything

over 10 years

I didn't say lobby mods, I said specialized mods. Keys can be given individually if I remember correctly. When we had the janitors, you basically allowed for forum moderators. With a bit of tweaking, access to moderating reports can be keyed as well, which allows for ultimate customization. I'm not saying stratify the entire site, but its staff. It's much easier to do your job when you have to accomplish A B C and D versus "uhh do everything, thanks".

Satan

over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

That's all on lucid. This isn't really in my control. All I can do is choose to enable certain features and control moderation that way.

yeah, i'll talk to you on skype about it at some point, maybe you could talk to him about it like the idea i gave you the other day

EmmerrLouise

over 10 years

thebrontosaurus says

stratification is bad though. We should be moving towards one unified community, not two separate ones that are almost identical physically.

We are one EpicMafia. We shouldn't be trying to split things up more.

As good as your intentions are, there will always be a huge 'divide' between players. You're attempting to unify a community that I don't think WANTS to be unified. Comp players don't want to be thrust into mingling with training/new players, and new players won't want the heavy, oppressive attitude of (some) competitive players. That's like asking all the political parties in Parliament to play nice and stop arguing.

We are indeed one Epic Mafia, but the skills and games vary SO much in each lobby. There will always be a necessity to keep things separate (to an extent). On your logic, we would just have one lobby and hope everyone gets along. That isn't practical and it won't work. Separate lobbies are a necessity on a competitive gaming website so you should be fashioning the mod team around that fact - separate mod teams.

I try to imagine it like the states of the US - different authority figures within each state with it's own rules and justice system but a 'federal' governing body to keep those states in check. This should be identical - a team of mods for each lobby (and specialist mods within those teams) who are accountable to the entire mod team and admin. Each lobby mod team doesn't involve itself with the actions of other 'teams' - if they feel the modding isn't being done properly, they ask an admin to investigate. Simple.

Seriously man, this works.