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My thoughts on Harrassment.

over 6 years

So, given the publicity that Calcium's thread has garnered, and the intense discussion it's cause, I figured I'd give my own opinon on the current status of the Harassment violation.


What Constitutes Harassment

As per the current ruleset, harassment is explained as the following:

  • Making repeated/severe personal attacks toward or slandering another Epicmafia user when the user has asked the harasser to stop. If filing on behalf of another user, one must show the consent of the harassed person.

The important things to note here is the following:

  1. Repeated or Severe
  2. Personal Attacks against or Slandering
  3. User has asked the harasser to stop

These 3 components is what constitutes a current harassment violation. If one of them is missing, a harassment violation is unlikely to be given. However, the second component of this rule is something that is rather argueable as to what is considered "Personal Attacks or Slandering". From my personal opinion, I find that anything that can give a user a bad name among the players on this site, given society's standards, should be considered harassment. Some of these terms are:

  • Pedophile
  • Molestor
  • Thief

Now obviously, just because someone calls someone else a slanderous word, does not mean that the one being called it finds it harassing. I've been called plenty during my time on this website, and have never reported for harassment as I've never found anything I've been called to be severe. So you shouldn't NOT say the terms I mentioned before in fear of being slapped with a harassment vio. However, when asked to stop YOU SHOULD STOP.


Harassment in the jakerton report

Next I'll give my thoughts on the report which brought about the original discussion of the report.

  1. At 10:07 in the game was the first instance of jankerton calling Jeff a pedophile.
  2. At 10:25 Jeff reacted and told him that's harassment. That should had been indicative enough for jankerton to stop, but I could see someone not getting the memo here.
  3. However he continued at 10:44.
  4. Jeff straight out asked him to stop at 10:50.
  5. At 12:10 Jankerton calls Jeff a "teen tickler" once more,having been firmly asked to stop.
  6. Though 14:46-15:07 He continued, however did not explicitally named Jeff.
  7. At 16:30 He once again Called Jeff a "teen tickler"
  8. At 16:43 Zayn asked him why he's harassing him.\

At points 1, 3, 5, 7, and arguably 6, Jeff was called a pedophile (+synonymous words) by jankerton. At points 2, 4, and 8, he was asked to stop + pointed out that what he was saying was harassment.

So given the previous 3 important pieces of a harassment violation, we can easily see the following:

  1. Repeated / Severe Repeated
  2. Personal Attacks / Slandering Slandering
  3. Asked to STop Three Times

At that point, what jankerton was doing consitituted harassment, and definitely constituted a vio.


NOTE or Vio?

Now we get to the moment of which the original arguement between mods in the previous thread sparked. Does it deserve a note, or a Harassment 1st? If we go by what the rule page specifies, a first time offense is supposed to get a warning. A quick search of previous reports against jakerton finds that he only has a single active vio for gamethrowing, and none currently of harassment. Therefore, going by what the rules page says, he should had been warned (vio reports) and told to stop and further instances of it.


6 Months Too Long?

Another point that was made in the thread/report was that an active harassment vio for 6 months seemed too long. Comparing the rule to other community violations finds the following:

  • Hurtful Comment Expires in 3 Months
  • Exploit Abuse Expires in 6 Months
  • Inappropriate Biography Expires in 3 Months
  • Inappropriate Avatar Expires in 3 Months
  • Inappropriate Content Expires in 4 Months
  • X-rated Material Expires in 3 Months
  • OPI Expires in 9 Months

Now the only ones that you could compre Harassment too is Hurtful Comment, However, when compared to community violation lengths of the other reportable offenses, 6 months DOES seem too long. Especially given that you could get a Harassment violation easily just for having a bad day and pissed at someone. In my opinion, I find that harassment vio's should be lowered to 3 months given that Hurtful comment gives you a 3 month experation period, or HC should be bumped up to 6 months expiration period.. This point is argueable, of course, and could be open to some discussion.


Final Thoughts

Honestly the public discussion got way out of hand. Generally speaking, if you disagree with a verdict of a reprot on this site, should you not first discuss with the moderator who gave the sentence to find out why?

  • It was DEFINITELY harassment
  • Report should had been a note + a warning from a mod given he had no previous active vios
  • HC and Harassment vio expiration length should be the same
  • Both Shoopie and Ally got out of line with the direction they took in the report and topic
  • you all.
over 6 years

yachi says

snip snip


I agree on that, I don't find calling people toxic or terrible is harassment, however I will stop regardless if asked. Mainly for being curteous.

The issue, however, is what one person considered harassment, another may not. That's mostly why I'm backing my suggestion of splitting it up into two different vio tiers.
deletedover 6 years
Why do you think a random epicmafia user saying "file an appeal" means that it's bias for the appeal to not be valid his word means literally nothing and it just shows that he doesn't know the rules for appealing
deletedover 6 years

calciumkid says

Ally, wtf??? Songin told HoldenRye to file a new appeal, and you instantly closed it within 3 minutes. https://epicmafia.com/report/250827 Prime example of Bias? You didn't even read the first appeal, it was instantly sustained. Songin literally JUST TOLD HOLDEN IN THE THREAD To MAKE A NEW APPEAL and you closed it. Ally shows bias yet again


Songin isn't a mod lmao

That appeal isn't valid for 2 reasons

1) You can't appeal something twice

2) You can't appeal a vio more than 7 days old
over 6 years

calciumkid says

-snip-


Just a precourser: I didn't realize that Holden had appealed it on another account. That's my bad for speaking as if he hadn't done it.

Back on topic, the idea of "These people won't discuss it without belittling" is mainly why I decided to make my own topic on the issue at hand. I wanted to address what was going on, give me opinion, and hope to open up some more relavent discussion on what garners a harassment vio. If someone has decided to no longer discourse in ways that can be considered logical and mature, then they no longer have a place in the discussion at hand.
deletedover 6 years
Nathan has the power to revoke it dont give bs replies like u cant re-appeal.
over 6 years
if ur not a teen tickler then why is being called a teen tickler harassment
over 6 years
Anyone wanna upbid me on someone in the sandbox circlejerk actually thinking this is harassment but defending their cjer to avoid upsetting them
deletedover 6 years
Ally, wtf??? Songin told HoldenRye to file a new appeal, and you instantly closed it within 3 minutes. https://epicmafia.com/report/250827 Prime example of Bias? You didn't even read the first appeal, it was instantly sustained. Songin literally JUST TOLD HOLDEN IN THE THREAD To MAKE A NEW APPEAL and you closed it. Ally shows bias yet again
over 6 years
dont silence me fake bitçh
over 6 years
what im trying to say is that i think there is a very clear line between what is and what isnt harassment
over 6 years

Songin says

Such if I call someone a horrible player, or I call them a toxic player, I myself do not find either of those to constitute harassment.


thats cus that is not harassment and anyone that thinks so is a moron
over 6 years
Jeff said that Jake was lobby camping before the vio was even moderated when he joined the only comp game available and that ally said he would get banned for it but then Jeff joined our game that we made to avoid him so who's the REAL lobby camper
over 6 years

denial says

-snip-


The main issue is that what one person constitutes as harassment, another may not. Such if I call someone a horrible player, or I call them a toxic player, I myself do not find either of those to constitute harassment.

The secondary issue is that level of severity is also subjective, easily influenced by the first.

It would be easy if there was a concrete agreement as to what is considred severe and what is considered mild, however that does not exist, and is near impossible to make.

That's more or less why I suggested two different harrasment vio levels, one for what can be considered "mild" harassment, and one for "severe." This would give mods more leeway in giving out harassment vio.



peach says


denial says




-snip-


I can't completely agree with this. If I know for a fact that someone have committed crimes which are obviously pedophilic in nature, then calling that person a pedophile is fine. However, going as far as purposely finding that person and continuing to attack them when they've asked to be left alone is what is not okay.

For such an example: I've called other players in games things like "Toxic" or "". If I've had some beef with them , I might call them out using words like "Terrible" or " Player". However, if they ask me to stop, I always will, and likewise I try not to bring past instances of conflict into new games.

However, if I find a player to be so toxic or bad that I just can't stand them, I will avoid them. If they seek me out because they know I dislike them, I'll report them for lobby camping. That's how I feel about instances where you dislike someone: Just avoid them, there's no need to start any form of conflict or arguements, as it always ends badly.
over 6 years
jackerkun is actually chines and thought pedophile meant cool guy its language barrier plz OT no vio
over 6 years
justice for jankerton
deletedover 6 years

Songin says


calciumkid says


Ally says

holden was warned twice before he was given a vio for it

also, shoopie sustained the report on holden. are you calling your bff biased?


Ally, my point is that Holden responded to the warnings UNTIL Jeff talked about Holden in his thread and Holden got angry.

You can't report someone for harassment, and then continue to talk about them. That alone is enough reason why both Holden's harassment vio's should be removed.

Shoop ur my new bff now how does it feel


I completely agree that what Jeff did was entirely wrong here. However, once more, Holden took the wrong course of action and as a result was vio'd.

If he had reported Jeff for his comment in that thread with the points you had made, I would had sided with him 100%. In fact, I still side with Holden in regards to not deserving what was said about him, and believe Jeff to be in the wrong for bringin him back into the discussion, but that doesn't excuse his actions in the slightest.

It's not too late either, Holden can still appeal it, and plead his case regarding the points you have made. However, a 3rd party arguing against the mod's decision won't do much if the person who was vio'd for a community rule break doesn't defend themself.


The problem is with people like ally, lacey etc in the community they cant have a civilised discussion without belitlling other people. "Holdenrye trolls and maybe lost a game once against us hey we shd go bully them off the internet".

Im sure they are the better humans with their thug mentality. Tbf to them they are doing well as mafia outside of games.
over 6 years
over 6 years
*listening to the latest BANGER by future with my beats by dr dre when someone taps my shoulder*

hey man, cant u see im enjoying my music? sheesh pal! have some common decency!
over 6 years

denial says




i was too lazy to read through the game that stemmed the report that stemmed this discourse but imo sometimes harassment is warranted lol. in past years there have been people on this site who were just absolutely depraved/garbage/consistently preyed on young girls and saw no consequences for it, cuz it was outside the jurisdiction of the website technically... but i see no problem with bullying the f*ck out of someone i know to be a borderline pedophile or fundamentally terrible in some other way
over 6 years
Sometimes I feel like EM is just a longer version of the hugh mungus joke fiasco
over 6 years
who is jankerton
over 6 years
ah, So u persecute Jared Fogle just because he has different beliefs? Do Tell. (girls get mad at me) Sorry. Im sorry. Im trying to remove it
over 6 years
over 6 years

PeanutMarmaduke says

im just joshing i think ur kewl we should hangout sometime how about we melt some oreos in a campfire


I would but I don't think you'de show up :(
over 6 years
splitting harassment into two seperate things might sound good on paper but in reality we shouldn't really be tolerating harassment at all

just like game related vios have a longer duration based on the severity of the issue, harassment has a longer duration because of the severity of the issue

harassment shouldn't have to be tolerated by a user: i don't agree that there should be some leniency given toward duration just because somebody can have a offday and choose to go off on somebody

if you can't dial it back and stop when somebody tells you to stop, you're gonna get that vio.. and harassment is a tier above in terms of community violations

note is okay here, but it really tilts over into more vio territory because of his continued use after being told not to

inappropriate content has kind of a weird duration though