Child roles(relies on a parent role to function in games properly)
Mechanic
Mortician
Saboteur
Admirer(to win as admirer)
Cthulhu(to some extent)
Co-dependent(Relies on more then one being in the game)
Templar
Rival
hey I see that there's some hate for these roles.
Some roles simply do not work in closed setups. This is not to say these are bad roles, but it'd be nice to point out to sandbox that these are heavily dependent on another role being in the game to function properly as a role.
Feel free to comment if you agree/disagree or think something else should be added.
tl;dr thulu is cool but stop putting mechanic into your setups just because it's new.
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beg lucid to finish all his plans for EM and let us edit setups
cthulhu has always been capable of winning solo, the only difference between cthulhu and every other solo win is that it must be the last living role as opposed to one of them
See, that's the issue. Many roles are child-roles under the definition. Many roles are mechanically dependent on other visiting roles or other reporting roles.
Doctors are child roles with hitman or werewolf, just as an example. If the thirds or maf are limited to these interactions (unblockable kills), the doctor has become a child role.
Therefore, defining the roles in context of parent requirements is somewhat obtuse. Few roles stand on their own when speaking generally about setups. We can find plenty of setups from which we can begin our discussion that obsolete any role as a child role, simply because most roles depend on certain interactions.
Child roles mean nothing in context of this. In this way, cub hit it on the head. Most roles are dependent, not children.
And on mechanic--mechanic isn't just useful for fab/anarch. Rather, the mechanic always knows their gun is real. Thus, even with a santa, etc., the mechanic doesn't have to worry about firing a gun. It isn't as much about the fact that there is a fab, as the fact there COULD be a fab. It allows the mechanic to fire the gun knowing it's real, which changes how the game plays.
Cthulhu and cultists sort of form their own little cult mini-faction in that Cthulhu is basically the cult's equivalent to a non-meeting mafia role. They definitely can still win for their team and have a defensive ability, but is also mechanically-dependent on having other roles that visit them.
If Cthulhu is a child role to the cult, then the next logical step is to make consigliere a child role to the mafia.
yeah admirer got fixed to become killer so I don't think it needs to be on this list...
and I think Cthulhu is fine on its own since they have no interaction with the cult and vice versa anyway. They are similar to traitor but can potentially win by themselves :^ )
I think mechanic is too specific to be included in the closed role setup. I mean samurai and enforcer are not on it even though cults etc. are more common than fabbed guns/bombs
you mean dependent, whereas a child item is a member of a subset of a parent item which is not what you're describing. children in a classification context have a single parent, whereas sab depends on the presence any of several roles
I have to disagree with the sentiment that mechanic shouldn't be in closed setups though.
Mechanics, while being child roles, have a different and specific function that changes the game. While true that it sucks in games without tricksters, fabs, and anarchs, its placement greatly changes those setups where it does appear.
This differs from other child roles in that the other child roles generally take and provide a service. Meanwhile, the mechanic role changes the usage of the other roles. Thus, one can say the mechanic has more effect on other townies than say a mortician, pathologist, etc.
If you limit child roles to simply those included, I think you ignore that child roles in closed do occasionally belong.This is because you have limited your understanding of child roles. I'll list others that you have failed to list.
Child roles: butterfly, journalist, snoop, telepath, thief, enforcer, shrink, godfather, consigliere (to an extent), thief, apprentice, lawyer, quack, driver (to an extent), hooker (to an extent).
There are plenty of situations in which we can envision each of these not being useful without other certain roles/types of role. Each of these, in some degree, relies on a parent role being in the setup. For example, a driver is not a feasibly role in some of the most basic setups, while a lawyer is only useful with a cop present, and an apprentice only useful in games with at least 2 separate powered maf roles (i.e., no vanillas), hooker is useless with all nonvisiting nonpriest towns. Now, perhaps we would use Golb's classification of game-mode-specific roles, but I don't think that's appropriate here. These roles really require certain types of roles to be useful (investigating, converting, ones receiving reports, etc.).
I think you get my point. I don't think we can generalize child roles to being less playable in closed setups than others.
tl;dr version: mechanic is fine in closed, some child roles are just fine in closed
Standard roles: roles that don't require game modes, other roles or mechanics to function (barring the bare essentials of a mafia game.)
Game mode-specific roles: roles that require or are strongly benefited by a particular game mode.
Game mechanic-specific roles: roles that require or are strongly benefited by a particular game mechanic.
Child roles: roles that require another role to function in a setup.
Co-dependent roles: roles that require additional players with the same role to function in a setup.
That should cover all the bases, with a few grey areas for caution.
Otherwise, your post is correct that these are roles that function poorly in generalized closed roles setups and that it doesn't make them bad roles. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be excluded from all closed roles, however. For example, a closed roles setup that takes advantage of the large number of game mechanic-specific roles could be fun and keep a sense of randomized chaos, even if it's more limited than the average "variant on standard sandbox" setup.
deletedover 7 years
moving on, it's a child role. Now unless you're a maniac(dare I say golbamaniac) I shouldn't be seeing it in your closed setups.
