Janitor: erase wills. wills are pretty much the bane of this role.
Enforcer: instead of just preventing conversion (next to useless), prevent mafia from being converted and switch other conversions to traitor.
Paralyzer: give him two votes when he uses his power. it's situationally unlikely enough that he'll ever have a use for his power, the extra vote would help.
Fabricator: add keys to fab items. fab is already a good role, but nothing beats a false sense of security.
Lyncher: win on lynch, not on death, unless lynch is overturned. this would fix lyncher being unwinnable on tree/gallis
Siren: if siren predicts her killer, don't kill her. seriously. alternatively: drunk all visitors, in addition to killing if guessing correctly (which is still hard enough)
note this is the perspective of a sandbox player and if you play comp you might not agree because some crappy setup uses one of these roles and depends on its shortcomings
deletedalmost 10 years
i don't think fabricator should be able to fab keys, keymaker giving keys clears himself instantly, fabbing keys would be difficult for keymaker to make himself clear since it depends on mafia to visit or not a keyed person
I made the following roles if anyone is interested in using them in sandbox setups
They're more improvements on existing roles than "custom" roles, although the logic is really limited so there are obvious differences
S Enforcer https://epicmafia.com/role/10969 Since there are no conditions for conversion, buffed enforcer just converts everyone to traitor, except does not attend mafia meetings and may convert mafia to traitor for balance.
S Janitor https://epicmafia.com/role/10970 Since there is no forge/erase will option (seriously? it breaks the "hide" action), buffed janitor just removes the 1 person limit so eventually someone won't leave a will.
an ssue with double cheffing however, like I said, is that you can't establish a clear until one of the cheffed dies. There are a lot of factors that determine whom of the two cheffed should die (so I won't bother going too deep into that) but if the townie dies, then you end up exacerbating the the maf advantage by one, i.e. you increase the number of dead from 2 by n2 to 3 by n2. This can be problematic because of a multitude of reasons, namely that if there are any other way that maf can increase their advantage during the day they can, in many circumstances, force a nl at that point. if more than one non-maf are killed, then their advantage can be pushed over the edge to force nl territory as well.
and that's just from mislynching the first set of cheffed. because both cheffed will undoubtedly have to out themselves, they'll likely end up being targeted (as will the chef). And adding to that, if you non-self-chef, you have a higher chance of hooking a town PR than you do a maf PR (there's about 25 town PRs and 24 maf PRs and so there's a higher chance of hitting a town PR than there is a maf PR).
chef will forever be op, even more so if you force people to use it to its fullest potential (self cheffing is actually a *nerf*)
self chef will get you one clear and 2x less likely to find mafia at the expense of roleblocking your clear and the ever present chance of at least one of you dying.
cheffing two other people is 2x more likely to find mafia (in 12p closed role after n1 with 1 death, 54% chance of finding mafia compared to 27% self cheffing) in ADDITION to auto-clearing the cheffed party that isn't mafia.
in fact, if you wanted to nerf chef, you'd make self chef the only option. the option to self chef is the only thing preventing chef from being unstoppable, because my winrate as chef when i don't self chef is 100%
Now that you brought it up, surgeon killing people does make absolutely no sense so removing that would solve the issue with it intruding on bg's "niche territory".
I agree that the power of the chef can be unlocked more by not-self cheffing, however I disagree that having both options available is a great thing for a role because it brings the issue of being OP (and generally if all roles aren't OP, then it should be nerfed, e.g. surgeon). with the current way chef is setup, you will more than likely self-chef in the early game to get some clears out and then as the game progresses you can opt to either continue self-cheffing, or if the baddies are determined, you can just chef them for the sake of hooking them (and if you know multiple baddies, you can opt to chef them together to force a nk or what have you). by removing the ability to self-chef, you essentially smooth out the chef's gameplay pattern as now it's difficult in most cases to establish clears in the early game and thus makes it harder for the chef to just roll over maf in the late game. in this way, chef still retains the ability to nullify maf early on if they make the proper deductions, but the chef still has to take risks and make guesses as they won't know for certain, in many circumstances, who actually is clear and who isn't.
also I like that change to jan and it'd probably make mortician a good role for once
surgeon is an op bg, not the other way around. surgeon just needs to be nerfed/never invented, since bg was around first and served its purpose well. surgeon killing people, on the other hand, makes no real sense.
there have been some good ideas for alternative surgeon mechanics also, but idk where they are
also if chef chose to be det+hooker, consider they'd also block the person they're cheffing (so if chef cheffed det, they take away the det's ability to det). i think that balances self cheffing perfectly well. and, again, self cheffing is underpowered compared to cheffing two others (I've eliminated mafia in 3 nights several games in a single night with non-self cheffing). self chef is an easy way out for newer players while also not as good as the more "complex" method for experienced players, which I think is a great thing to have in a role
samurai: I thought about something similar to that before (namely a samurai v.s. ninja interaction) but I thought it was cheap and dumb as it'd just make samurai a bad version of granny. So instead of just rehashing granny but in a terrible way I just thought of adding a new mechanic or niche for samurai so that people would want to get samurai (it's absurd how no one wants to be a samurai because of how bad the role is).
bg: the main issue I have with bg is that it's basically a weaker version of surgeon. As you may have inferred, I hate roles that are basically weaker versions of another existing role, so bg falls into that category well. adding a vest to the bg, IMO, would give a nice clear divide between the two roles, where bg isn't entirely a sacrificial lamb anymore because they do start with a vest but at the same time, unlike surgeon, bg won't kill inno's. This will give a nice dichotomy between the two roles, as now bg is the protect x person and kill baddies role rather than the reverse ghoul role while surgeon is the protect x person and kill indiscriminately role.
chef: the argument for removing self-chefs is that there is no downside to it as you are still removing 2 players from their night actions but at least one of them is guaranteed to have no night actions (being you) and so instead converts the chef into a det + hooker role. While a good option for the chef, it is basically what makes the role so powerful. by removing this option from the chef and forcing the chef to chef two non-chef players, you are forcing the chef to rely on the reports of two people who you probably cannot trust, which, though obviously removes the default option of self-cheffing, forces a layer of complexity in that you actually have to determine via deduction who of the cheffed are maf and who aren't.
samurai: i'd personally make samurai kill whoever tries to kill him in addition to conversions, both counting toward his current 2 kill limit
bodyguard: i think bg is already a good role; actually somewhat op if lucky
baker: chef+survivor bread would be good, 3 is just unusual and would completely prevent starvation
chef: i don't think that option needs to be removed; after all, self chef is even less effective than cheffing two others already unless the situation calls for self chef (in which case, removing it would be removing a good strategic option)
maid: i thought about nerfing maid (make it blockable, etc) but considering maid has literally no win condition, it would just be lame for whoever gets found as maid. besides, being unblockable gives it priority in lynch, so you can't just put it off and drunk maid, which makes things a little more interesting (forced to lynch non-mafia)
