Epicmafia

internal issues with the mod team

almost 10 years

i wasn't planning on making a thread about this but i was having a conversation with someone and i had a realization that this is probably an issue that needs to be discussed in some capacity.

to start, the mods have this idea that the entire site is against them. because of this they try to minimize every sort of conflict possible, whether it be internal or external. most administrative decisions are becoming "how can i stop people from complaining," and for me at least, it made being a mod frustrating and not fun.

i'm not entirely sure how the mod team adopted this culture of appeasing every possible party, but from the inside at least, it's pretty obvious. mods aren't allowed to post on the forums or get into arguments at all, even as regular users, and it's a huge sacrifice of individuality. because of this, they're pretty much forced to take every insult directed at them with a smile, and it's created a culture of self-pitying, spineless mods that can't take any criticism. they can put it under the guise of professionalism, but at the end of the day there is no individuality there, and the mods are forced to meet the ridiculous standards of professionalism that vancy and others have set for them. there's a reason why you don't have mods that are regular forum posters anymore. regardless of how good of a choice they'd be, they aren't modded because they're either deemed "too unprofessional," "too controversial," or "not a team player." this means that most new mods are going to be spineless conformists that are afraid to disagree or have a mind of their own, just because if they do happen to disagree, they aren't being a good "team member."

when dan was an admin, he set up a good foundation for the moderators. i think he has a bachelor's in human resources or something, so that's probably where it stemmed from. either way, when he was an admin, all of us worked together efficiently and happily, and there weren't really any stragglers. that's because he had a really good attitude about being an administrator that i don't really think any other admin has had. dan was a leader, but he treated the mod team as a business with a very horizontal structure, where pretty much everyone was an equal, including him. that kind of attitude removed unhealthy conflict and created an atmosphere where everyone wanted to help each other. this idea of everyone being equal should come naturally, but for vancy and some other mods, it doesn't. there is blatant favoritism between the admins and mods, and between the mods themselves.

on top of that, vancy has somewhat of an authoritarian attitude where he isn't working with the mods, but the mods are working /for/ him and they have to answer /to/ him. this kind of attitude is absolutely ridiculous and creates an incredibly unhealthy and vitriolic atmosphere where it feels like if you disagree with him, you're working against him. there's no room for any sort of healthy conflict or discussion, because at the end of the day he has the final say. i've experienced it firsthand and i'm sure some mods agree with me too.

in summary: the mods have created this culture where they think everyone is against them so they try to reduce complaints as much as possible and it made them spineless, only "professional people" that will "work well with the team" can be modded, there is blatant favoritism between the admins and mods and the mods themselves, and vancy has an attitude that he isn't working with the mods but the mods are working for him.

this isn't meant to be an attack on vancy. i don't want him to respond. if he does, i'm sure he'll disagree with me on most of this, and i wouldn't blame him if he did, but this is what i noticed when i came back as a mod, and i never had these issues when dan was around. at the end of the day, mod culture sucks.

deletedalmost 10 years

Retti says

i don't disagree with any of this but the first way to get yourself alienated from your mods is to disregard their opinions and treat them in such a way that requires them to either behave or do something that they don't necessarily agree with, which i feel segways into what shacky is talking about. this isn't a personal jab to vancy himself because i know a lot of the stress he deals with, however, i don't think this self-censoring mentality i've seen plaguing the mods is a good thing. there are a lot of forum threads and topics that i feel get shut down inevitably because of some false ideal that something will boil over and things will look bad for the mods. i don't understand the need to create a shield around the mods because then it builds up a false sense of security, and it really doesn't help the glaring issue which is that there is a huge disconnect between the mods and the community right now.

An admin going against all his mods is obviously wrong, but in situations where some mods have one opinion and some mods have another, of course the admin is going to be the one who makes the final call. That's part of being an admin and why it has to be someone who's proven themselves a competent moderator, too. And the people who had the opposite opinion will of course then have to go along with something they may not agree with - because they've been overruled. You're never going to have a team that agrees on everything 100% of the time. And if everyone quit the moment they didn't agree with someone, they'd be pretty damn petty.

projectmatt says

I'm pretty confident that if a larger percent of the community embraced constructive criticism and positive reinforcement that the incentive and overall work ethic would be 200% higher.

That just won't happen though.

deletedalmost 10 years

I obviously agree that bending to public opinion/complainers is not a good way to operate. But there is definitely also a healthy medium.

Satan

almost 10 years

justrec says

oh look a huge problem because of hate. i didn't see this coming. /sarcasm

lol

MeIody

almost 10 years

justrec

almost 10 years

oh look a huge problem because of hate. i didn't see this coming. /sarcasm

MeIody

almost 10 years

I don't think I ever felt belittled ever in modding. However, I respect the people I am working under. It's two different concepts, though I can see where the line is fuzzy.

@Matt that is very true, but EM can't do that, I don't think.

projectmatt

almost 10 years

MeIody says

The mod team is almost primarily ran on negatives. Lucid doesn't pay the mods, even in (lol) tokens or anything, so the incentive isn't huge. However, Bronto tried to capitalize on what positive reinforcement he could during his adminship :3

I'm pretty confident that if a larger percent of the community embraced constructive criticism and positive reinforcement that the incentive and overall work ethic would be 200% higher.

deletedalmost 10 years

MeIody says

Rutab says

Considering I was disagreeing with something that was handeled with extreme bias and wrongful mod actions, I'd say it was ok since no one was listening to me.

I don't think it's okay (I have no idea what you're discussing though). This was why I left during Arcbell's reign because I knew I couldn't stay on without erupting and I felt that was wrong to do to Arcbell while I was his mod.

Mods are not owned by admins. You shouldn't ever feel like that because if you do, it's probably not a good idea to stay with the team if it's only making you feel belittled by the one in charge.

deletedalmost 10 years

Lashka says

Admins are leaders. They have to Lead. If someone doesn't respect the admin's decisions, that's tough for them. It's not self-pitying or being spineless to respect his right to tell his mods what to do, nor is it authoritarian to tell your mods what to do sometimes. Unless you're saying that me and Sacha (and Alex, though you may have a point there) were authoritarian admins anyway. Mods have always been held to a higher standard... because they're mods. And mods who have refused or failed that standard, were removed.

i don't disagree with any of this but the first way to get yourself alienated from your mods is to disregard their opinions and treat them in such a way that requires them to either behave or do something that they don't necessarily agree with, which i feel segways into what shacky is talking about. this isn't a personal jab to vancy himself because i know a lot of the stress he deals with, however, i don't think this self-censoring mentality i've seen plaguing the mods is a good thing. there are a lot of forum threads and topics that i feel get shut down inevitably because of some false ideal that something will boil over and things will look bad for the mods. i don't understand the need to create a shield around the mods because then it builds up a false sense of security, and it really doesn't help the glaring issue which is that there is a huge disconnect between the mods and the community right now.

MeIody

almost 10 years

The mod team is almost primarily ran on negatives. Lucid doesn't pay the mods, even in (lol) tokens or anything, so the incentive isn't huge. However, Bronto tried to capitalize on what positive reinforcement he could during his adminship :3

deletedalmost 10 years

MeIody says

Well, I think Mika exaggerated a little on using the authoritarian term, but yeah. Also, bronto's version was way different from Mika yet it worked. : )

I used authoritarian because Shacky used it it in the OP.

Sure, other ways work. Zach isn't Dan. He's Zach. He has his own way of adminning, just like every other admin has. So don't expect him to be a carbon copy of Dan. He has to mistakes to learn from, too. But holding mods to a standard isn't particularly authoritarian at all. You could easily argue the most authoritarian admin had the lowest standards for mods (Lol).

As for the negative community. Well. That's been the case for a very long time. Fighting back against it is not a good thing for a mod to do. It causes more problems than it solves. Just like staff can't argue with awkward customers in a restaurant. "The customer is always right, even when they're wrong."

Renaldo

almost 10 years

Slow says

Renaldo says

lambast

forgot the e

thanks moderator friend slow.

projectmatt

almost 10 years

Renaldo says

but in all seriousness it's definitely discouraging to log on and "do it for free" when some users are just waiting to lambast you for a mistake.

Moderation of epicmafia is more of a game for some users than epicmafia itself.

Yeah, this is a big problem that likely isn't going to change. I definitely understand that there are a lot of valid, logical complaints about the current moderation system but the way the community often approaches the team with ceaseless hatred and negativity is incredibly demotivating.

deletedalmost 10 years

Renaldo says

lambast

forgot the e

MeIody

almost 10 years

Rutab says

Considering I was disagreeing with something that was handeled with extreme bias and wrongful mod actions, I'd say it was ok since no one was listening to me.

I don't think it's okay (I have no idea what you're discussing though). This was why I left during Arcbell's reign because I knew I couldn't stay on without erupting and I felt that was wrong to do to Arcbell while I was his mod.

Sims

almost 10 years

also, it's entirely hypocritical to not allow the mods to publicly disagree on something, but then overturn a report after someone complains on the forums. that's the height of disagreeing publicly, and all it does is show that the admin has the final say and that the mods aren't allowed to have an opinion until he shows up

deletedalmost 10 years

Considering I was disagreeing with something that was handeled with extreme bias and wrongful mod actions, I'd say it was ok since no one was listening to me.

Renaldo

almost 10 years

but in all seriousness it's definitely discouraging to log on and "do it for free" when some users are just waiting to lambaste you for a mistake.

Moderation of epicmafia is more of a game for some users than epicmafia itself.

Sims

almost 10 years

an authoritative approach works for some people and not others. bill gates was notorious for taking control over everything, but that's because the man was a genius and had a vision. if the same approach was used in retail or managing a restaurant, the dude would have been fired.

MeIody

almost 10 years

I don't think you should ever publicly disagree with something on the mod team. Saying "okay, I see where you're coming from, we'll discuss it/look at it further" is a better route, imo. Disagreeing in the forums or outside Skype chats can only lead to trouble and drama.

I doubt any mod has done this 100% of the time, but at least keep it within the team as much as you can.

Renaldo

almost 10 years

projectmatt says

Also, you're spot on about how the moderators feel about the userbase. Regardless of how many complaints are valid, the team generally feels that there is a spiteful attitude towards the team on this website and a lack of constructive or logical criticism that is so desperately needed. This attitude towards the community and vice versa is even more of a reason as to why the admin needs to be involved in a friendly and engaging way.

kill all mods

MeIody

almost 10 years

Well, I think Mika exaggerated a little on using the authoritarian term, but yeah. Also, bronto's version was way different from Mika yet it worked. : )

deletedalmost 10 years

Not even sure I'm allowed to post but this is a pretty good thread. I am getting to a point where I am infuriated. I was scorned for showing public disagreement on an issue.

Vancy this post was not to criticize you. I want to show that I think seeing the mod team as one large mind that always thinks the same thing is really bad. I guess it fits in with individuality issues Sims mentioned.

projectmatt

almost 10 years

Thanks for this thread. I agree with most of it, though I'm not wanting to call out or attack Vancy here.

There's a difference between working -with- the moderators and working -for- someone. The admin is a leader, but he isn't the executive of Walmart. Being involved with the rest of the team in a friendly and constructive way is really important.

Also, you're spot on about how the moderators feel about the userbase. Regardless of how many complaints are valid, the team generally feels that there is a spiteful attitude towards the team on this website and a lack of constructive or logical criticism that is so desperately needed. This attitude towards the community and vice versa is even more of a reason as to why the admin needs to be involved in a friendly and engaging way.

Sims

almost 10 years

being an authoritarian leader works for some people and not others. being an administrator should be a lot more like a manager of a business than being the head of a government.
nobody likes a manager that micromanages everything, tells everyone what to do, plays favorites, and doesn't take criticism well.