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The Detailed Cheating Rule!

Snow
over 8 years

Time for another one of those threads where I write a wall of text, four people read it, we have a short discussion, and then it's forgotten about. Of course, this will also be linked in the rules thread so people can find it when they need it.

We’re making a cheating thread because it is becoming the most commonly broken rule, and we need a very clear and detailed definition for it. The goal of this thread is to provide transparency and consistency when cheating occurs and to provide a platform for discussion specifically regarding cheating.

What is cheating?

Cheating is giving yourself or others an unfair advantage or disadvantage in a game. The trickiness in defining cheating is that there is not a clear line dividing what advantages are fair and unfair. At the end of the day, the host of a game gets to decide what is and isn’t cheating. However, as you can see below, we have a big list of what is and isn’t typically considered cheating.

Note that we have two lists below for what is and isn't considered cheating. Some things are not listed in either list because they fall into a gray area where it's not totally clear whether or not it should be considered cheating. In these cases, it's still the responsibility of the player to ask the host for permission.

Cheating:

If you’re do anything on this list without explicit permission from the host, then it will be considered cheating. You have to get permission every game, even if a host usually says something is ok.

Hosts - if you decide to allow something on this list, make sure it's publicly announced. Preferably at the start of the game. And when you say something won't be considered cheating, make sure it's public information. Don't just whisper it to one person. That's entering rigging territory.

  • Giving information or advice from outside the game (whether you're in the graveyard or never were in the game in the first place) to a player still in the game
  • Account-swapping or sharing - unless it’s for the entire game, and you announce it to everyone ahead of time
  • Using multiple accounts in the same game
  • Using graveyard vision in any way
  • Rereading prior games after a remake
  • Screenshotting whispers and using those screenshots in the game
  • Using scripts or programs for challenges
  • Helping someone else cheat or willingly participating in cheating with someone else
  • Pretending that you have cheated, or pretending/threatening to cheat
  • Assisting other players in a non-alliance-based challenge

Not Cheating:

For these, players do not have to ask the host for permission. However, the host still has the right to say something on this list (or anything else within reason) will be considered cheating.

  • Using web searches to figure out answers for challenges
  • Using images with conversion keys to make challenges such as Symbol Math and Presentation easier
  • Writing anything on a digital or physical notepad
  • Using other communication software, such as Skype or Chatzy, to talk about strategy with other players who are still in the game during the game - this includes voice chat
  • Talking to people outside the game about unrelated topics
  • Copying and pasting whispers
Snow
over 8 years
Added "Assisting other players in a non-alliance-based challenge" to the cheating section.

This is another gray-area rule, but I think it makes sense to assume it's cheating. It's not based on limitations of EpicMafia or anything like that - it's simply a weird thing that's never really been a big deal. But when you think about it, whispering someone the answers to Alphabet in the third leg of BB's Final 3 because you were eliminated would be very similar to just running up and physically helping them in a challenge on the show.

I want to emphasize that this doesn't mean it's always cheating, and that it doesn't mean you'll never be able to do it ever again. It just means that you have to ask the host for permission first. Which seems about right for something like this.
Cammy
over 8 years
You can discuss and read about it here: https://epicmafia.com/topic/74260
Ash0wns
over 8 years

ISamEI says

Pre-game alliances: cheating or not cheating? I dislike pre-game alliances, but I don't think they count as cheating since it isn't insurmountable. But it's such a blurry area, that I think this issue would be best to clear up here as soon as possible before it crops up in any games.


"BEFORE IT CROPS UP"

Every single game has one. Confirmed. Imo I don't really care about pre-game alliances, because that alliance that didn't start in the pre-game? Will just start at the beginning of the game. Literally, has no effect.
ISamEI
over 8 years
Pre-game alliances: cheating or not cheating? I dislike pre-game alliances, but I don't think they count as cheating since it isn't insurmountable. But it's such a blurry area, that I think this issue would be best to clear up here as soon as possible before it crops up in any games.
NYGiants
over 8 years
Scripts such as:

creepypasta: a script to automatically put spaces in so you don't have to spam your space bar

xelfer: you type the text forwards and it reverses it as you type so if you're even reasonably a fast typer you always win.

gaw / wag / edges: a script that auto completes a 6+ letter word when you put in the 2 letters the host gives you

assassin: send 3 lines of text with a single button press making it nearly impossible to get sandwiched

enumeration: you press the number on your keyboard, the script spells it out.

platformer: map the actions to a single button so slow typing/typos are not a factor.

ryflyx/raflax/roflox: auto replace vowels with designated letter.

the list goes on and on.
Snow
over 8 years
Srsly, we're not having the discussion about copypasting whispers here. This is about the cheating rule, not the current lobby standard for copypasted whispers. We'll cross that bridge soon, but not right now.

As for jetio's questions...

1.) That's not cheating. It does fall in the grey area on the pregame alliances rule, but the pregame alliance rule is separate from cheating because it is absolutely never ok.

2.) I just rewrote the rule, but the intention is that Y and Z would be caught cheating. Not going to go into that second specific hypothetical because it's getting really sketchy and I'd want to see a specific case before making a judgement.

3.) Yes, that's fine. Was intended to be fine - rule rewritten to make it 100% clear that it's fine.

4.) Depends. Ask the host if you're not certain.
deletedover 8 years

jetio4 says

*insert questions*


(this is all imo so bare with me)
.
.
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i dont think so, im pretty sure thats how the whole lobby works to certain extents and like if communication via skype aka already having added each other on a different thing and knowing each other probably is allowed then yeah that should be okay

good question and for that i found this
>It's ok for players in the game to tell players outside the game what is happening, but not the other way around.
x is in the clear unless x had intent for y to tell z. however, hes most likely in the clear since he couldve just told z anyway. z is obviously receiving information which contradicts the second part of the rule and so under MOST circumstances z would be punished. y would deductively be punished for helping someone cheat and its up in the air for x but if y is leaking info they probably dont know about it (that was probably rly hard to follow sorry)

im pretty sure people ask questions like that in the jury and jury people should be no holds barred. if its legit then heck frickin yeah but if theyre lying then i guess thats debatable

uhh idk you should probably just stick to google when the host says man, idk when youll need translators and anagram solvers unless the host says so

k rip me

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jetio4
over 8 years
Some questions on what's considered cheating:

If player x and y only every play games with each other in it and always make an alliance between them without fail, is this considered cheating? It seems to fall under "pregame alliances" and I am unsure what the ruling on this is.

If player x tells nonplayer y something that happens in the game, and then nonplayer y tells player z that information leading to an outside game influence, who is punished? There are some scenarios wherein player z may not even have asked for this information - if they are able to prove it would that be an exception?

If players are dead and in jury can they discuss things that happened before their death? Things that could lead to different jury votes and whatnot?

What exactly is considered a "script" or "program" for challenges? As it's explicitly stated that using Google for challenges is fine, what other exceptions exist? Obviously scripts that parses text and then pastes text itself would be cheating (for like Reflex and whatnot), but what about things like anagram solvers, or translators, or replacing x character with y character? At what point is it considered cheating?
ZodiacBeast
over 8 years
I know how u can stop all cheating.




Ban evry1
deletedover 8 years
yeah I mean copy pasting and forged whispers and etc adds strategy but just tell someone what they said to start drama

idk I don't feel TOO strongly on it but I do feel like c/ping whispers is an attempt to make it look more credible whether it is true or not and adding credibility could give people unfair advantages aka what's defined as cheating

it's just kind of unnecessary I guess
athena
over 8 years

Happy0wns says


R0ronoaZoro says

Still annoying that copying and pasting whispers is legal while screenshotting is not considering certain browsers (primarily firefox) physically can't copy and paste text from the game. :P


it's legal in main lobby as a real thing, c/ping whispers. It's perfectly fine here and should remain so.


c/ping whispers in main lobby is not "legal" its against the rules there lol
evo
over 8 years
But no one ever cheats
deletedover 8 years
That's true, however i'm fairly certain there's a rule on EM which states that you cannot physically forge anything for your own benefit. Then again, we're survivor lobby, so idrk anymore.
Ash0wns
over 8 years
That's a whole part of the game though. Do you actually believe the forged whisper? It makes c/ping whispers that much more null in the long run. Which makes that argument more compelling towards the "C/ping is fine and should stay the same"
deletedover 8 years
Hm. I might of found a flaw in c/ping whispers. There's something i've been pondering over the past couple of games, and I can't really say that it works or not, but I think if we allow c/ping whispers then there might be a chance of forged whispers. You can literally c/p a whisper, and then just change the text to say "we should get so and so", or "so and so offered me an f2". So I think on the safe side, it shouldn't be allowed. But that's just my opinion.
Snow
over 8 years

Happy0wns says

One last thing on the matter actually.

If anything it should be to the host's decision. me personally will always allow it, even if you guys ban it, why the hell wouldn't I allow it, just makes things more boring. More tame, like just, keep it.


Yeah, that's always going to be the case. Even with the clearly cheaty things, the host is allowed to say, "For this game, you are allowed to use scripts!" And then scripters could have a great time and make the game awful for everyone else. Because the host said it was ok. And that's not changing. This is just meant to provide backups for hosts and make sure they don't have to say, "by the way, no ghosting!" every game to make sure the mods can take action.

edit: also, hi caels. i see u
Ash0wns
over 8 years
One last thing on the matter actually.

If anything it should be to the host's decision. me personally will always allow it, even if you guys ban it, why the hell wouldn't I allow it, just makes things more boring. More tame, like just, keep it.
Snow
over 8 years
I'm gonna ask that we just drop the cp'ing whispers thing for the time being. We're going to get around to it, but just not now. Want to discuss the cheating rule as a whole for the time being.
Ash0wns
over 8 years

R0ronoaZoro says

Still annoying that copying and pasting whispers is legal while screenshotting is not considering certain browsers (primarily firefox) physically can't copy and paste text from the game. :P


it's legal in main lobby as a real thing, c/ping whispers. It's perfectly fine here and should remain so.
Snow
over 8 years

R0ronoaZoro says

Still annoying that copying and pasting whispers is legal while screenshotting is not considering certain browsers (primarily firefox) physically can't copy and paste text from the game. :P


We had that discussion after I drafted this thread, because I had the same thought when I was putting it in the lower section. I asked Chris to make it the lobby poll for the time being, not that the lobby poll holds any weight because alts. I'm probably going to make a thread talking about this a few weeks from now where we're going to look into this a lot more in-depth.

And regarding Sonia and Cosmo's concern - I'll update the wording. I meant regarding strategy, not what's physically happening.
xSoniaNeverMindx
over 8 years
Why can't I talk to players who were never in the game about the game like what if I want to just vent or say omg I'm doing so well in the game boy if that's gonna be a rule ban me now
HardCarry
over 8 years
i don't know whether to upvote cosmos comment because i agree with him or to downvote it bc he suggested to nom me.
cosmoiswatching
over 8 years
Talking to players not currently in the game about the game - this includes eliminated players and players who were never playing in the first place

this is either partially redundant with gy vision, also what is the big deal about talking to players not in the game about the game.
Like if I say to a friend, I want to nom hardcarry for the heck of it, I will get a vio?
HardCarry
over 8 years
is mayonnaise cheating?
R0ronoaZoro
over 8 years
Still annoying that copying and pasting whispers is legal while screenshotting is not considering certain browsers (primarily firefox) physically can't copy and paste text from the game. :P