Epicmafia

Let's Discuss Meta

over 5 years

Meta in EpicMafia is something that I think is definitely a blurred line when it comes to playing mafia. I'd really like to start a discussion on the consensus of meta, whether or not it is a healthy part of Epicmafia. It is hard to argue that in competitive play that meta does not play a factor.

What is meta?

Meta in mafia essentially reading a person over the game. It's using the playstyle of a person to determine their alignment.

For example, if you're playing a game of Frontier Justice 2.0 with John and you know that he never cc's a power role as mafia, and he claims journalist and get's cc'd, then you know, through meta, that John is very likely the real journalist.

Is meta against the rules?

Meta in games is not against the rules, and you can very openly use it without consequence. Meta Abuse however, is against the rules. The epicmafia ruleset classes meta abuse underneath cheating, the exact words following.

Abuse of meta over several games can also fall under cheating or sometimes OGI depending on a number of factors.

It is fairly ambiguous what turns using meta as meta abuse (there is no specific game count nor examples showing what meta abuse would look like)

The Problem with Meta

The main problem with meta in games is that it gives an unfair advantage to people who are playing with similar or the same people over a large span of games. Regardless of whether you actively "meta abuse", meta is something you can't really avoid when it comes to your reads. It's not like you are going to hammer someone else over someone you know is scum due to a meta read.

The Solution to Meta

Meta is something that is hard to avoid, and you can't really force anyone to stop playing with people they enjoy playing with. A solution brought up in the past was to anonymise competitive games to discourage the use of meta.

Please share with me your thoughts on meta. I'm very curious to see what other people think of this topic.

Does meta have a place in Mafia?

Yes

JM123

over 5 years

how to win a trophy with meta:

-get a braindead setup like VDLI where theres no mechanics/strategy/thinking . it's just about 'scumhunting'
-tell everyone that you're running
-play 70% of your games with friends
-your friends will vote your cc 9 out of 10 times regardless of what happens in the game
-you end up in the top3
-when the mods investigate you, complain about how you deserve to play with friends.
-profit: you won a trophy

method used by countless people over the years

deletedover 5 years

this thread even being written is proof you people don't know what meta is. you can't even form reads without meta. meta is how the game is played. what's townie and scummy is all based off meta. as giga said: no meta, no mafia.

superspooky

over 5 years

Conclusion: It's a problem that can't be fixed

alexandra

over 5 years

meta isn’t an issue

honest meta is an issue

never n1ing friends and then sincerely claiming metaclear when your friends die, for example, is an issue

there are people that have played together on this site for several years and have an idea of each other’s play styles and that’s not avoidable

Songin

over 5 years

Don't have time to read it all right now, Will construct a more sound argument later.

Basically meta is apart of mafia, and it can't be avoided. However, specifically playing with friends and utilizing meta in a majority of games tonestablish reads between you and your friends ruins the game for others participating, as they don't have the meta available to counter such stuff.

So if you're in a game with someone who you know would not n1 host, and host is n1'd, you can say that you don't scumread that person this one game due to that. However, if those two players do this across a number of games, it creates an unfair environment where other players have to adjust and learn meta of people they know nothing about just to avoid doing something that would help others establish meta reads.

Giga13

over 5 years

The game of mafia cannot exist without meta. No meta, no mafia

Captcha

over 5 years

Of course meta has a place. A person can't shut off their brain. The only bad meta is the type where friends have code words, but that's just cheating.

january

over 5 years

shady says

TLDR kill your friends

shady

over 5 years

TLDR kill your friends

shady

over 5 years

There’s a line imo between meta and “honest meta,” where meta in this case would be “I personally think it’s stupid to cc in this setup so I never have and never would” (even if it’s 100% true) versus honest meta would be “I always claim my alignment every game and I never lie about it and never will.”

As far as meta between friends, having a no n1 pact (or I always carol you, etc) implicitly or explicitly is a bad part of competitive mafia and doesn’t have a place imo. Reading someone because you know them well is one thing, and that is always going to be a part of the game.

Mucs1337

over 5 years

january says

i support anon comp but it also somewhat takes away from the fun of playing with friends

Go play with your friends in red heart.

january

over 5 years

in general when we say meta abuse it's not talking about meta reads like "she's acting different than she does as maf", it's things like "she never n1's him so therefore she's not maf"

reading someone with meta is absolutely a part of the game, but if someone NEVER n1'd me and i got n1'd one game, it makes the game unfair because they could claim to be "meta clear" because i died

january

over 5 years

i support anon comp but it also somewhat takes away from the fun of playing with friends

but i do think the line between fair meta and meta abuse is blurred. if the rules say you can't, for example, *always* carol the same person or *never* n1 someone, then where's the line of "too much"? It wouldn't really make sense to say one game that breaks the meta "cancels out" meta abuse if the majority of games DO follow the same pattern

i think the safest thing is to just avoid bringing up meta. of course, people will still sometimes make reads based on your meta but for the most part it prevents any sort of abuse.

my advice would be just don't use meta - random kill and random carol and etc. that way you avoid other people using it to meta-read you (even if you're not bringing it up, they can still use it)

APsychologist

over 5 years

Honestly never thought meta abuse existed ....

Play styles are much more nuanced than just "player X doesn't do X or a particular action".

It's much more about the tone, the choice of words, that this player uses, and the mood that you get from this player too, which in all are very malleable in nature. So you can have a same player but with different 'flavor' of behaving in each game.

Speaking of personal experience, for some players, I may have an advantage of reading on them, but I think it's pretty lame to just say "I know X player is mafia(let's use mafia in this case) because I have a meta read on them".... You should point out what the meta-read is, aka why are they acting 'different than usual' in your opinion. What sayings made you think they're mafia?

Whenever someone just say "I can meta read him, therefore he is X." is a bland argument, with no substance

Anyways, an intriguing concept

YoSoyPabloEscobar

over 5 years

Wow an actual productive thread?

Moldyches

over 5 years

I would definitely agree on making comeptetive setups anonymous. N1 grudges, and fearkills could be completely avoided, and although there could definitely be a way to go around it, anon setups def. Help

BennyWinter

over 5 years

Too add more thoughts to this discussion.

If you have meta, and someone else is abusing it, is it your fault? Is it the person abusing your metas fault? Are you both at fault?

Is Mafia a game where meta is to be an expected fundamental part of the game?

What would you suggest is a good solution, if you think Meta is currently a problem in mafia?