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Graveyard Mechanics

sl0nderman
about 6 years

And why it's a massive can of worms.

Here I'm going to list all the problems I have with roles that interact with the Graveyard and dead players (I'm going to just call the GY Roles from here forward).

People hate slowrolling games already. If you could check the faster timer button in ranked, people would. If GY Roles get added, you would be forced to wait out every single game until its conclusion. In fact, I would imagine you would get a gamethrowing vio or sui vio for leaving a game (while dead) before it's over.

One of the most popular games at the moment is Fortnite (and it's predecessor PUBG). When you die in this game, maybe you stick around and watch the guy that killed you for a minute, but then you can join the next game right away and try to win again. I don't know about you guys, but I think most players on EM are equally impatient and would rather join the next game right away. There wouldn't even be anything to watch because the spectating graveyard that we know now would have to be changed so the dead couldn't see what PR everyone is.

You'll also be forced to wait around in a game even if there's little to no chance that a GY role will bother with you. Two of the most suggest GY roles are resurrectionist / necromancer or medium. The former lets you revive players, the latter talk to the dead. GY Roles will always want to deal with a PR. If you're a blue in a setup with these roles, you're going to be waiting around in the graveyard because you probably have nothing to offer a GY role.

Having a Mafia-aligned GY role would be very tricky indeed. A mafia sided resurrectionist wouldn't work for two reasons. It would keep the LYLO ratio as it was from the start of the game if a mafia was dead and if a mafia is revived, the town basically know who they are and will just kill them again. Obviously this is solved with no reveal setups but that's a niche and doesn't solve all the other problems.

Finally, I have to bring up one of the older points that's been made about changing the graveyard. It removes a learning experience from the game. As a new player, watching the game unfold while dead is a good way to see what is happening behind the scenes and helps you get better acquainted to the game. This is no substitute for a tutorial that this game lacks and I'm not suggesting new players are swarming in, but we would be removing what little help we have.

tl;dr

  • people would be force to sit around in games after they die
  • nilla roles will feel this the most
  • very hard to balance GY roles
  • removes the only learning experience EM really has
Are you in favor of roles that interact with the dead after reading this thread?
13
No
2
Yes
zambi
about 6 years
, but then you can join the next game right away and try to win again. I don't know about you guys, but I think most players on EM are equally impatient and would rather join the next game right away. There wouldn't even be anything to watch because the spectating graveyard that we know now would have to be changed so the dead couldn't see what PR everyone is.

You'll also be forced to wait around in a game even if there's little to no chance that a GY role will bother with you. Two of the most suggest GY roles are resurrectionist / necromancer or medium. The former lets you revive players, the latter talk to the dead. GY Roles will always want to deal with a PR. If you're a blue in a setup with these roles, you're going to be waiting around in the graveyard because you probably have nothing to offer a GY role.

Having a Mafia-aligned GY role would be very tricky indeed. A mafia sided resurrectionist wouldn't work fo
deletedabout 6 years
i mean its a online mafia site its not like anything is copyrighted
Golbolco
about 6 years

yela says

do we wanna just make a skin of town of salem because i think thats what were heading into with the cursing filter and copying roles and mechanics that are in tos


I'm still sore over them ripping us off wholesale in early 2017 shortly after Lucid's last update. Pirate is literally a reskinned Gambler and they stole Medusa from my friend Desta.
deletedabout 6 years
do we wanna just make a skin of town of salem because i think thats what were heading into with the cursing filter and copying roles and mechanics that are in tos
shayneismyname
about 6 years

GrannyPixel says


sl0nderman says


GrannyPixel says

I think it is WRONG to force people to stay after death - it would be boring as hell, and would increase GRS in my opinion. I think that there should be no games that RELY on Graveyard roles - and if there are roles that contact the dead they can do so with the pool of players who are remaining in the game.


suppose the hypothetical situation where there is a game with a resurrectionist.
everyone in this game leaves as soon as they die.
the resurrectionist is now no more useful than a blue.
do you see the paradox this creates?


This Graveyard thing is only going to be made for games with GY roles in them - right?


Gotta ask that to Lucid and co. So many times we *think* we know what we're getting, and then it turns out it's an entirely different thing (see:the filter).
Golbolco
about 6 years

GrannyPixel says

Graveyard roles should be an entirely different group of roles from the Mafia/Town/Third Party. Every game that these roles are used in should have the Afterlife/Graveyard play features - whereas any game without these roles should be just as they are right now.


By this, do you mean a separate alignment/team?
sl0nderman
about 6 years

GrannyPixel says

Graveyard roles should be an entirely different group of roles from the Mafia/Town/Third Party. Every game that these roles are used in should have the Afterlife/Graveyard play features - whereas any game without these roles should be just as they are right now.


just like that the complexity of the game has doubled
GrannyPixel
about 6 years
Graveyard roles should be an entirely different group of roles from the Mafia/Town/Third Party. Every game that these roles are used in should have the Afterlife/Graveyard play features - whereas any game without these roles should be just as they are right now.
Torreador
about 6 years
The easiest solution would be to not create such roles.

The added value of a resurrection role is very low, compared to the fact that people won't be able to stay in game and read mafchat, in order to progress.

The question of people having to stay around is also a good point.
GrannyPixel
about 6 years

sl0nderman says


GrannyPixel says

I think it is WRONG to force people to stay after death - it would be boring as hell, and would increase GRS in my opinion. I think that there should be no games that RELY on Graveyard roles - and if there are roles that contact the dead they can do so with the pool of players who are remaining in the game.


suppose the hypothetical situation where there is a game with a resurrectionist.
everyone in this game leaves as soon as they die.
the resurrectionist is now no more useful than a blue.
do you see the paradox this creates?


This Graveyard thing is only going to be made for games with GY roles in them - right?
sl0nderman
about 6 years

Roleblocker says

My response to this is: Look at Town of Salem. People there have the medium role and they leave before games end. They don't care that there's a medium can communicate with the dead.

Also, what would a medium really be useful for besides ruining scumhunting?


the town of salem medium communicates with the whole graveyard anonymously. not a very powerful ability considering you will never get any concrete information out of it.

(i played ToS once a few years ago and i was medium in that game.)
sl0nderman
about 6 years

GrannyPixel says

I think it is WRONG to force people to stay after death - it would be boring as hell, and would increase GRS in my opinion. I think that there should be no games that RELY on Graveyard roles - and if there are roles that contact the dead they can do so with the pool of players who are remaining in the game.


suppose the hypothetical situation where there is a game with a resurrectionist.
everyone in this game leaves as soon as they die.
the resurrectionist is now no more useful than a blue.
do you see the paradox this creates?
lucaskart
about 6 years

shayneismyname says

My biggest worry to this, is that in order for this to work, Lucid will just get rid of GY spectating for the entire site (since that might be easier than to just disable it for the games that actually have roles with these mechanics).


This could just be a pre-setup option, like day start, last will, etc.
starrydash
about 6 years

Roleblocker says

My response to this is: Look at Town of Salem. People there have the medium role and they leave before games end. They don't care that there's a medium can communicate with the dead.

Also, what would a medium really be useful for besides ruining scumhunting?


A better idea to balance the medium would be to make the quotes of the dead anonymous, like on Loup Garous en Ligne so that the medium wouldn't be able to know whos talking. If that was added, it wouldn't ruin scumhunting because nobody knows whos talking.
shayneismyname
about 6 years
My biggest worry to this, is that in order for this to work, Lucid will just get rid of GY spectating for the entire site (since that might be easier than to just disable it for the games that actually have roles with these mechanics).
Roleblocker
about 6 years
My response to this is: Look at Town of Salem. People there have the medium role and they leave before games end. They don't care that there's a medium can communicate with the dead.

Also, what would a medium really be useful for besides ruining scumhunting?
Golbolco
about 6 years
The other two bullet points, I have no response to. They're both accurate and things that need to be weighed in the pros/cons for graveyard roles.
Golbolco
about 6 years


removes the only learning experience EM really has


I've previously stated my doubt on how useful the graveyard actually is for people to learn the game. If anyone here has actually used the GY to learn role mechanics, please let me know and prove that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

That being said, I personally believe that this is still very important to preserve. Spectating is something that's oddly looked down upon due to potential for cheating, but honestly how is it any worse to spectate while dead vs. spectate while not participating? If you're cheating, you're cheating. Maybe something should be done with the spectating box.
Golbolco
about 6 years
Speaking on the balance part of all this:

Graveyard roles more or less encourage the setup to use no-reveal or reveal-alignment so that mafia or non-town roles could function in the GY. I'm personally ok with this, as the way I was taught mafia IRL used no-reveal as the default (I had never even seen a moderator tell us someone's role after death until I started playing EM, really.) However, whether or not everyone is comfortable with a role being dependent on a game setting is another story. It is true that to some degree, it will limit just how much the roles can be used, but I think that the popularity of setups will supersede the actual number of setups that can be created (which is still near-infinite.)
GrannyPixel
about 6 years
I think it is WRONG to force people to stay after death - it would be boring as hell, and would increase GRS in my opinion. I think that there should be no games that RELY on Graveyard roles - and if there are roles that contact the dead they can do so with the pool of players who are remaining in the game.
JM123
about 6 years
www.instagram.com/josemorenofs

dont mind me, just passing by. my new vids are cool tho