Epicmafia

Fix Prosecutor

over 6 years

TL;DR: The prosecutor role is a mafia role whose vote counts for 2. Therefore, in most (if not all) situations, everyone can self and the prosecutor dies. Selfing should only count for one vote.

Okay, most of you who are reading this probably already read the TL;DR, but to reiterate, if everyone on the village side selfs, mafia will have to follow to avoid being caught out as mafia. The prosecutor's vote counts for two votes, so if they self, they die.

I noticed this issue when I was playing a setup of mine called Ode to Samantha: https://epicmafia.com/setup/1462597

Now, this was a fun setup I tested a good few times in unranked and it seemed relatively balanced. Shoopie agreed and upvoted. Mod upvotes count for +20, so this allowed it to be played in ranked. However, in its 4th ranked game I realized (thankfully before anyone else did) that if everyone selfed, prosecutor would die. Unless nilla refused to self, in which case they would probably just be shot and then everyone would self.

Immediately, I downvoted my setup to get it out of ranked and got Shoopie to remove her upvote. And this isn't applicable only to the Ode to Samantha setup. It applies to almost any setup. The only thing I can really think of that would counteract that is adding a judge, but if they die, village can still do this. It's an unfair autowin.

So, in order to make this a fun and usable role, the prosecutor's self-vote should only count for one vote. Why does this not apply for judge? Well, potentially that would be a good cover-all too. But it would be rare for judge selfing to be a problem (maybe in traitor setups). Judge would not self for mafia, and village would not use this tactic to try to kill their own judge.

So, I'd like to hear your input, but personally I think something needs to be done about this. The role's effectively useless otherwise and this will allow for more potential setups that we haven't yet seen.

Prosecutor's Self-Vote Should Only Count For One!

20 signed

I personally think this is a no-brainer.

over 6 years

As I said, make reverse mafia with that or multi setups.

Songout

over 6 years

I've try to make setups using prosecutor as well and have found that it's near impossible unless you include something like Gallis or Judge.

PatrykSzczescie

over 6 years

Her says

Yeah, it's extremely limiting to have to include specific town roles for this to even be usable in ranked.

Yeah, there should be gunning role to play with saboteur, visiting roles to play with trackers/scouts... it's extremely limiting.

SweetMelody

over 6 years

Self-voting is game throwing. I don't know why it ever became "a thing."

Bebop

over 6 years

lucid would have to do this himself and to be honest there are many more important things lucid could be doing when he decides he wants to give the site some attention

Her

over 6 years

Yeah, it's extremely limiting to have to include specific town roles for this to even be usable in ranked. Also for once I agree with BSM. Pres math is cancer.

iGONYi

over 6 years

A setup with Gallis/Judge and Prosecutor counters this as Judge will force NL with Prosecutor and Gallis will die along with them.

On most other occasions this is a problem though :3

blacksnakemoan

over 6 years

I don't know if I mentioned it, but the only way to get around this is to have an entire town who hate the mechanic of selfing. I know there's a few of us, but it's a bit hard to get it in every game. Personally I will never ever do pres math in JFK, and I deal with a bunch of reports on it from other people daily, but we can't force people to play a certain way unless it's against a wincon.

Tember

over 6 years

Hmm, I remember that this role usually happens when town has a similar counteract option, like judge and politician. But yeh now I want to play a ranked setup with a prosecutor and have everyone self X)

Sevenateyou

over 6 years

Her says

The only thing I can really think of that would counteract that is adding a judge

If the following roles are alive in set conditions, town can't use this strategy. lots of Gallises, Judge and Autocrat when last mafia alive.

I do understand that this is very limiting, but making self votes only 1 vote for Prosecutor isn't suddenly going to make it better.

arid says

the solution to this is pretty simple, instead of selfing everybody just crosses and it's pretty much the same as selfing except prosecutor lynches their fos instead of getting lynched.

blacksnakemoan says

Arid's solution will still reveal the prosecutor.

As black said, this strategy is viable and has no solution. Unless you can somehow convince the moderation team to give unfair violations for using game related mechanics to their advantage.

I can't think of a single set up where having a ml + Prosecutor so it's not a real ml set up would be balanced or fun. As the set up still has to be tailored around Prosecutor, which is a boring role.

Also it makes Prosecutor + Autocrat combo boring. As Prosecutor can kill Autocrat and not be put into autoloss situation, and town can't abuse Prosecutor's ability. Although that combo requires you to be in day start to make not possible autoloss from n1 kill.

Prosecutor in general is just a bad role, not a lot of good set ups can come from it, if any at all.

PatrykSzczescie

over 6 years

Prosecutor shouldn't be played with some random roles that have no meaning and cause that selfing is the most optimal play. You should put judge to this setup, make something like reverse mafia or anything else that makes selfing suboptimal for town.

Her

over 6 years

Which doesn't mean you shouldn't put it to him that he should fix the role.

deletedover 6 years

i mean the solution to this is probably going to be 'the setup won't work in ranked' bc lucid likely isn't going to fix the role

Her

over 6 years

Then the prosecutor role needs to be fixed or everyone will just self. There's no rule against it, and you're saying you guys won't objectively count this as cheating. So again, anyone who would not self would still be mafia.

deletedover 6 years

ur dumb

blacksnakemoan

over 6 years

Arid's solution will still reveal the prosecutor. We can't guarantee that we'd vio someone for doing that, bc selfing is legit. You can refuse to self, and you can't be vio'd for that, bc refusing to follow clear isn't breaking the rule.

Her

over 6 years

Arid, anyone who tried to cross would be mafia...

arid

over 6 years

the solution to this is pretty simple, instead of selfing everybody just crosses and it's pretty much the same as selfing except prosecutor lynches their fos instead of getting lynched. you obviously don't play enough ranked if you didn't realize this simple solution

Her

over 6 years

True, BSM. But if that's the case, we need a guarantee from the mod team that people using this strategy to win in ranked or comp will be vio'd.

blacksnakemoan

over 6 years

The biggest issue here is that Lucid doesn't really come back often, and I don't know that he would bother for this

I think it's a good idea you've got, but I also like the idea of a role in comp that breaks the selfing meta bc I hate that and prefer the old style of a town deciding on one person together

Her

over 6 years

What I mean is... in ranked, people will probably all try to self. I'm not trying to force Shoopie to side with me here, she can comment in disagreement if she wants to... but clearly she removed her upvote because it was a potential issue.

deletedover 6 years

just handicap yourself as town
if you don't try to win, the mafia won't lose

blacksnakemoan

over 6 years

Alternatively, you just don't self in this setup bc selfing is a terrible meta

deletedover 6 years

https://epicmafia.com/setup/1369711

literally just have everyone self day 1 or bandwagon the person who doesn't want to self

Her

over 6 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A64ZMKvU9M4