The other week I linked a game on the round thread showing a bf/gf game that was thrown -- all it took for mods to vio it was a couple of screenshots of them saying "i love you" on each other's profiles

Bypass'd all the drama and bias that way as well

please shut up

The violation is applied generally to e-bf / e-gf subjects. That makes it much easier to judge than the rest of you think

DeadYami says

Thanks pranay, I clearly need a break now.

I agree with your points. Especially the examples part. That needs to be defined. Would you be a dear and start collating for one particular rule initially.

For example you can collate all the things that would lead to ogi and all the things that are misinterpreted as ogi but are not ogi.

Thanks pranay, I clearly need a break now.

Interpreted*

Giga, you bring up fair points. The main ones I want to touch on are:

1. Yeah, investigations take days however I don't think that it should wait until after the round is over or people already being at 1.9k to start an investigation. I understand that within the first few days it may be hard to say whether or not people are cheating but the rolemods should check at least once a day for suspicious behavior.

2. You mention this case where one user got a vio for breaking the rules and the other got a leash. I understand that most reports are seen from a case by case bases and that you can't fully define EVERYTHING to be black and white, however from my experience the way it works is a joke.

I stand by the rules needing to be rewritten and proper examples must be given. I'll keep saying this whenever I see the need, but the fact that the rules can be interrupted several different ways across multiple mods is stupid. Mistakes can and will happen, but you can't act like the rules or the people enforcing them are professionals. A professional team and set of rules would cover most if not all grey areas and have a team that follows these rules to the tee.

Last thing I want to say is that, yeah I appreciate that you got some people are trying by taking their time out however I have to disagree when emotions and unbias becomes a factor in their verdicts.

tldr it takes a longass time to do shít like that and mods arent exactly being paid so a little appreciation for their efforts, even if they end up being wrong, doesn't hurt (not naming any names in either regard). doing the opposite will just make the people who put in the long work necessary for the investigations disappear

and im also gonna go ahead and outline the scope of what these type of investigations involve, just because i want people to understand what goes into these types of investigations as best as possible--and they happen just about every round now, far more than when i was doing this type of work as a moderator.

theres tons of work to be done: games to be read, summarized, and compiled, important information from games to be highlighted, patterns to be noticed, then other moderators (and/or role mods now) need to read it all and have their own opinions, coming to a decision, and then determining a punishment. and, it all has to be done in as unbiased of a fashion as possible from everybody involved. and after all of that, the players in question might end up being found innocent. but.....

just because a court trial lasts a few days doesnt mean someone must be found guilty by the end of it... just because the mods spend a few days looking at something doesnt mean a punishment must be given. and if you ask me, more people need to understand this and be more sympathetic of this fact when rounds get paused for days and the suspects are found innocent.

try being patient with mods if it takes them a while. like yourselves, most of them have other things to do during the day as well i would think, so it's perfectly fair that these things take some time, in my opinion anyway. i know that i'm biased since i've been a part of it before, but still.

one last thing since this post is already unforgivably long... for those who unironically don't care about the results or investigations taking place so that the round can end ("end the round") just so that the next round can begin for those same people to either not trophy or not play at all, is (imo) pretty selfish and doesn't take into consideration the work put in by moderators. just be patient and let them do what they need to do--you can still play reds in the mean time.

im gonna go ahead and post this even though it might not be necessary since i dont think everybody understands what this type of stuff involves:

when i made the decision on the cocacola and zwink investigation (mustve been 2013 or 2014) it took me two days to make a bin and evaluate everything said in the games, determine my decision, determine a punishment, and get other moderators to check it and make a decision with me and put together a fair punishment.

i think in that particular case we allowed zwink to trophy but banned cocacola for 6 months from trophy running for what i determined to be potentially subconcsious play in favour of zwink throughout the round. we also determined it wasn't enough for us to suspend zwink from the round and didnt find zwink guilty of purposefully taking part in it or knowing this was happening and doing nothing to prevent it. they also weren't allowed playing gold hearts together for 6 months iirc (could be wrong on this). however....

no violation was given. what violation is there to give for what we determined? in this case, it wasn't cheating, and games were not being thrown overtly to the point you could apply a gamethrowing violation to any singular game on its own.

blacksnakemoan says

I mean Pranay's sort of right in his wall of text, but also, Pranay is so susceptible to being manipulated by meta that it's a running joke at this point

Agreed. I do get manipulated a lot. But you have no idea how much fun it is.

I don't think meta is as bad as it used to be. But if you guys wouldn't run every new player out of comp games with the hostility when someone makes a mistake...it would be less of a problem.

Srsly..new players dont play comp b/c you guys get so worked up over a damn game.

but in a game as subjective as this it's incredibly hard to moderate. i've held this opinion since i've been here: there's nothing more difficult to moderate on this website than a meta abuse accusation

i had an essay of a post that had to be put in 2 posts a few years ago (due to number of characters) defining meta abuse and how it should be viewed. i cbf to find it or type it again but in short, its really complicated and there are many possibilities; it's case by case

is it meta to get lines from a game where you are town and paste them in a pastebin and the next time you are mafia paste them in the game

I mean Pranay's sort of right in his wall of text, but also, Pranay is so susceptible to being manipulated by meta that it's a running joke at this point

I can't tell you how many times people misrep me independent of our alignments and say "soda would do x" when either a. I don't do that at all or b. I do that, but not all the time due to the variety in my game play.

So the point here is that you can't enforce the rule if the abuse is not beyond a point. So it is on the players to decide what they want to do. We don't have the right to tell them when to break their meta and when not to. So they ca abuse it if they want. It is their fuking choice. I made my choice to use meta always to my adv. I never let my guard down to let someone win. But when i can win with someone i will take it. If i know something then not using it to win is gt. So if i know something and still ignoring it to let someone win is gt.

Meta abuse is against the rule. But meta abuse is not black and white. You can't enforce that rule.
I will tell you where the problem is with meta and where it isnt.
Case1- normal game where no one is running and everybody wants to win. Lets say in this game 2 friends are playing. They know each other too well. Here one friend will try to read the other based on past experience. This is absolutely fine. Me and soda have played way too much together. We can read each other almost every time. It becomes difficult to hide a role from the other. So we try new things each time. Sometimes even a single word out of the ordinary is picked up and we know the role of the other. This is absolutely not meta abuse. We both want to destroy each other if we are the opposite alignment. This is use of information we picked up from past experience. In this case when i am running i will break meta like ccing bp as nilla so soda will not know that i am mafia.

Case 2- when 2 friends like gerry and mori are running. They know each other too well. They will not try hard when one of them is running and they are opposite alignment. They will not break meta. They will do the same thing they do as town or mafia. So the runner can easily get their way. This is meta abuse. If in a game gerry acts towny as mafia and wins then post game gerry will apologize to mori because mori lost a game on her run. This is meta abuse. In such games when mori is n1d gerry will claim to be clear. This is meta abuse.

When brownpimp or atikur used to run, I used to have a pretty easy way to win games. When i was town i just had to towntell. When i was mafia i used to n1 them and claim meta clear. People would believe me because they knew we were friends. They could read me easily so i knew what to do to win. I always cared about my win.

I'd rather leave it open in case anyone else has something to say, otherwise it can just die out. =/

It is safe to say that you can close this thread after reading what markus said. It covers everything about meta.

mandevian says

Iazy says

mandevian says

Before you ask questions, understand the definition of meta.

So tell me what do you mean by meta?

That's actually a good point, I guess when I made this topic I would say meta being stuff you do every game. Added it as a question tho because let's discuss that too.

That is not a definition. Please tell me the specific definition and the way it creats problem. You can give examples if you want.

I've given a few examples already, but my goal is to define meta. I understand why this isn't clear, I didn't add that because this was rushed...

I want to see what people think should be considered meta that would be against the rules, adding that to the op too now....

Iazy says

mandevian says

Before you ask questions, understand the definition of meta.

So tell me what do you mean by meta?

That's actually a good point, I guess when I made this topic I would say meta being stuff you do every game. Added it as a question tho because let's discuss that too.

That is not a definition. Please tell me the specific definition and the way it creats problem. You can give examples if you want.

you literally can't avoid meta when playing mafia. everyone uses meta every game to some degree.

in saying that, there's a difference between meta like "i would never n1 player x" and "player y is too good of a player to make that move". the former is meta abuse, the latter is not.

denial says

btw, meta abuse didn't even seem to be the problem that mods had with shamu/dusk based on the two lines i bothered to read from that pastebin

it looked more like favoritism/circle jerking that were the concerns

From impressions I've gotten in the past and seen, favoritism and circklejerking seems to be some form of meta...

blacksnakemoan says

Giga7 says

Q3. Without meta, the game of mafia inherently cannot exist (it would simply be pure luck)

Wouldn't anon games be an example against this? They'd work in a vacuum of personal meta

I agree with soda though, meta is too easily manipulated, by both sides. There are some players who N1 me without fail. It doesn't help me, because I'm dead, but if someone else has picked up on it then it's an easy maf read. but at the same time, I night one'd someone for a solid week, then used that to clear me later on.

Also a point I brought up in OP, should n1 kills and such be considered meta abusing if you use that against someone when it can be broken the next game?