I have seen so many issues with ISP lately that I want a completely legitimate and serious explanation of what ISP is and how to avoid it. Apostasy's game and report (https://epicmafia.com/topic/64588) is a controversial issue in my opinion and I think he at least deserves a refund.
I also want to mention that I believe the rules on refunding need to change. Refunds are too dependent on the rules of the site and the rules of violations. They need to be related to the specific happening, not by the same basic rules. If Apuleio had paid attention enough to the game, he would have realized that it was autowin and all he had to do was reread and find out that keri was cop. Apeescaper was confirmed mafia had he realized that.
That is where I bring up the report on me. I was recently given a Note (I know it's just a note, but I want to bring up the sudden double standard) that was for ISP. During a game, (only a red-heart) I was clear and I had hammer. As I was rereading, I missed a soft claim made by the cop that one of the people in my 3-way was clear. I was reported and asked to be given an ISP violation. Ladynemesis noted it for ISP. As shown above, a simple issue of rereading should be given no violation according to Apostasy's case. She even warned me that it was just in case it happened again. This is an obvious double standard with the same issue and different verdicts.
What is ISP? I'm not angry about the note, I'm just disappointed since I think this plus the handling of refunds is not good.
deletedabout 10 years
connor youre hilaruous
besides i meant what is ISP in the sense od the double standard being applied here
You put words in my mouth that I didn't say and you start to use stronger language. I don't feel like having a conversation like that. Plus, I gave my opinion, I don't think there's much more to add. You can either agree or disagree. Not much more to it.
Should games where someone blows autowin be refunded? That's a whole different topic that has nothing to do with ISP (at least not necessarily, though in certain times as I mentioned it is indeed ISP). I personally believe that no, it shouldn't. Identifying autowin is one of the skills that are tested in some setups with complex mechanic logic, and even when something sounds as simple as "that person was clear because inno" or whatever reason, being able to keep up with all of the variables in the game and remembering them is surely one of the skills that are developed and tested in mafia. You can also not solely ever blame one person, because in a team game like this, had another person made it more clear, even if it meant saying something 5 times to make sure they would remember, was a decision that each of the people that knew didn't take, an assumption that cost the game when one person failed to live up to their standards.
In mafia you always have to cover all your bases, even if it means making sure that people won't make noob mistakes
I disagree, the ISP via negligence was made so that if someone participated enough in other days, but stopped participating at a critical point in time, it could be refunded.
For example, let's say a person is afk all of d1, where the cop reports are all there but comes back right before kicks. Afterwards, they participate quite effectively d2 and then even d3, but they don't take into account cops inno from d1 because they weren't there and end up hammering them.
Under regular ISP rules it would be much harder to give someone like that, who participated the majority of the game, a violation.
However the "negligence" was quickly misapplied by some mods who wanted it to be what it's not (an excuse to give people who make BIG mistakes ISP even when these mistakes were not due to a lack of participation at all) so mods quickly made it quite clear in the rule what it's intention is (not to punish negligence alone, just read the clause).
Making a mistake should never be a violation if the person is putting game-related effort. That is just simply not "insufficient participation".
dude, why do you worry about my capabilities. just give me 4 people and watch me deliver in 2 hours. if u dont like the document, then ignore it. i write SOWs and contracts every day.
That was not what I wrote. Look, I'm all in favor of talking about stuff but whenever people start to make the discussion a bit more heated, I'm out. So I'm out.
Refunds should not be given at all. Too much bias between mods who favor their friends and give them refunds over the average player. Total bs, always has been, always will.
deletedabout 10 years
it was just really minimal participation which is kinda sad
deletedabout 10 years
So you're admitting that you could definitely see this game getting refunded but the only thing stopping you is that there is no violation? That is what I think is a load of bullcrap. You literally just admitted you could see a game like that getting refunded but that it's getting held back because Apuleio didn't deserve a violation.
deletedabout 10 years
Right, and a lot of other mods disagree with you on the fact that it was no vio, because ISP by negligence exists for games like this. This is literally the exact scenario ISP by negligence was made for and you are objectively wrong.
Here you stated that since he participated in night meetings and the end of Day 2 to the end of the game. He spent about 12 minutes not participating and just lurking. How is that not enough to OT for ISP? He clearly affected the game since he was ISP'ing for 12 whole minutes. When he got back he even used the "LOL I JUST GOT HERE" when he clearly was there in all of the night meetings right away. So he either faked AFK or literally just sat there for too long. How does that not constitute ISP?
