Epicmafia

Regarding Meteor

almost 9 years

This is a public rebellion.

An explanation of the thought process that lead to the new rule being added, an explanation as to why it doesn't work the way the current mods/admins think it does and a suggested solution are included.

For brevity, I'll create 2 scenarios, X and Y, both of which involves 2 mafia, 1 irrelevant clear, 1 doctor and 2 blues.
In scenario X, the mafia have attempted to kill the clear 3 nights in a row, and are now facing meteor.
In scenario Y, the mafia have attempted to kill the clear 3 nights in a row and town haven't nled yet, if they NL meteor will be on mafia.

Why the new rule was added:
Let's consider X; in X, let's consider the two choices mafia could make:
A) the mafia choose to kill outside the clear.
B) the mafia choose to kill the clear.
If the mafia select A, then the doctor saving the clear is irrelevant. If the mafia select B, then the only difference between the doctor saving the clear and the doctor not saving the clear is that 1 of the two options results in a draw, which is a loss from towns standpoint.
If you consider this, then the doctor IS gamethrowing by saving, since there's no potential benefit for him.
Hence you can conclude that the doctor saving on this night is gamethrow.
That's really all there is to the thought process behind the new rule and it makes sense, if you look at it objectively from the standpoint of being in X.

Why the new rule shouldn't have been added:
While it makes sense from the standpoint of being in X, the function of a doctor in a game is to prevent the 'most clear' or 'most towny' person in the game from dying. With the addition of the new rule, let's examine scenario Y; town have the following options available to them:
A) they can nl, and have a 100% chance of the clear being killed
B) they can lynch on the day, resulting in a 4way.
In both A and B town is put into a non-profitable position because mafia are abusing the loop-hole provided by the new rule.

Suggested hotfix:
make it so neither the doctor or the mafia are at fault if the doctor decides to save the same person he saved the last 3 nights on meteor nights. The only difference between this rule and the aforementioned rule is that it prevents the abuse of a loophole. By pure technicality, saving the clear is gamethrowing on meteor night, but if the mafia are stupid enough to kill the person they know is going to be targeted by the doctor on meteor night then they deserve the draw.

Do you wish to have the right to screw with the mafia if you so wish?

Independence.

Are you kidding? I'm ABUSING this loophole.

Disagree.

ling

almost 9 years

the poophole loophole

Endorphins

almost 9 years

Mafia have advantages. Why take games that are near perfect balance and unbalance them by taking a number of scenarios that provide a 50/50 outcome and force it into a 1/3? Pranay your argument is so bad i can barely believe youve survived just crossing the street for this long.

Hibiki

almost 9 years

Satan says

does this rule refer to the quack role as well?

yes

Satan

almost 9 years

does this rule refer to the quack role as well?

Giga

almost 9 years

Hunt says

why are you holding a bias toward's the power of doc?

power of mafia- kill the clear

power of doc- save the clear

why are you saying that doc should get preference?

mafia is in minority. the mafia is making the kill.

the cop has already given 3 reports to town, so the doc has had enough already.

Doc has gained an advantahe by intercepting a mafia kill attempt. That is why they deserve the advantage in meteor-ridden games

IndexCards

almost 9 years

Doc doesn't/shouldn't know for sure mafia will target the clear. How is he throwing by saving the clear?

Mafia doesn't/shouldn't know for sure doc will save the clear. How are they throwing by targeting the clear?

Meteor should cause both sides to die and give both sides a quarter or a third of their normal payout (not half each because then town and mafia could trade a draw for equal point-expectancy overall). Neither side should be forced to make a sub-optimal play to avoid a GT violation by allowing meteor. If they believe the quarter or third payout will be better than their chances of winning by making a bad kill choice, then they should be allowed to play the game of chicken that forces the opposition's hand.

Dizzeguy

almost 9 years

Forcing the doc to not protect clear on the final day is completely against their win objective. Their win objective is to win with town, and save town. You may as well take the doctor out of all games, because if cop dies then mafia will 100% of the time continually hit the doc save. What a useless role you have made of one of the most important in the game of mafia.

I don't know why you keep implementing asinine rules anyway. Just let people report for whatever and you can give them vio's for anything you want. It's about the same as mod bias that is already here.

deletedalmost 9 years

I think teh doctor should be allowed to save whoever he damn pleases.

deletedalmost 9 years

Anyone who says its throwing to do that is dumb and deserves to be struck down

"oh hey, this maniac broke into my house and tried to stab me in my sleep but I luckily shot him in the face first. Is it stealing to keep his gold watch??"

Duck you soft idiots, you wouldn't survive a day on the streets yassjdc (you're all so soft Jesus ducking Christ)

Satan

almost 9 years

i would just take the throwing violation and get the comp win tbh (unless it is refunded then ???)

Devante

almost 9 years

poser says

for the future if anyone wants to watch people struggle, comp gai or anything with meteor

every setup has meteor :)

deletedalmost 9 years

That sucks, I would've just hammered him tbqh.

Thanks for the answer on that folks

Loreli

almost 9 years

harodihg says

Okay so from my understanding of comp the following scenario could be possible:

You're 1st place and it's the final day with you and 2nd place both joining the same game with your last hearts - you're only 1 point ahead of him and both still alive in this scenario with him potentially being aligned against you. From your perspective you "win" the round if you win/draw or if you lose and he flips the same alignment as you. Therefore from your perspective forcing draw is equally favorable to you as a win is. Is this GTing?

More simplistic scenario: You're 3rd place, the person in fourth is 5 points below you. you have hammer between him and another person. If you hammer him, you're confirmed to trophy. If you hammer him because of that it's ogi.

FTR, I handled this situation, hammered the other guy, was wrong, and suffered fourth place. The more you know.

Solace

almost 9 years

harodihg says

Okay so from my understanding of comp the following scenario could be possible:

You're 1st place and it's the final day with you and 2nd place both joining the same game with your last hearts - you're only 1 point ahead of him and both still alive in this scenario with him potentially being aligned against you. From your perspective you "win" the round if you win/draw or if you lose and he flips the same alignment as you. Therefore from your perspective forcing draw is equally favorable to you as a win is. Is this GTing?

Game Throwing is examined from the perspective of the current game and not the competitive round as a whole.

So yes, forcing draw in non-autoloss situations to win a round is still throwing.

hedger

almost 9 years

that's just ogi

deletedalmost 9 years

Okay so from my understanding of comp the following scenario could be possible:

You're 1st place and it's the final day with you and 2nd place both joining the same game with your last hearts - you're only 1 point ahead of him and both still alive in this scenario with him potentially being aligned against you. From your perspective you "win" the round if you win/draw or if you lose and he flips the same alignment as you. Therefore from your perspective forcing draw is equally favorable to you as a win is. Is this GTing?

poser

almost 9 years

for the future if anyone wants to watch people struggle, comp gai or anything with meteor

and abe, i'm not reading all of this, but i'm hoping your argument is that mafia shouldn't be able to kill whoever just by going to meteor. because that argument has always made mafia look like a bunch of crybabies. why is this being argued about when it's been touched on 200 times and the actual important stuff never is

Loreli

almost 9 years

harodihg says

Humor me here, it's only considered game throwing from either players standpoint because they don't gain anything from forcing a draw, right?

Thats explained in the first segment of what I wrote in the OP?

Loreli

almost 9 years

Pranay, it was explicitly stated in the example that the clear was not a cop. (irrelevant clear, cop is relevant)

The goal of this topic is not to screw mafia over, but to give people the option to punish audacity which will function only as a method of preventing the abuse of the currently present loophole. It's unlikely anyone is going to be forcing meteor even while it's legalized, mafia will just smarten up and kill in the unclears like they're supposed to.

Also, the power of mafia is not to kill the clear, that's the power of strongman. Mafia would be a different game if all of the mafia were strongmen. Cheers.

Hunt

almost 9 years

why are you holding a bias toward's the power of doc?

power of mafia- kill the clear

power of doc- save the clear

why are you saying that doc should get preference?

mafia is in minority. the mafia is making the kill.

the cop has already given 3 reports to town, so the doc has had enough already.

deletedalmost 9 years

Its screwing over town only if they have two choices of A. lynching in mylo B. Three way no clears, when the doc has the power to prevent that

Hunt

almost 9 years

the question is, why do you only want to screw maifa? this game is not about lynching mafia. This game is about lynching.

deletedalmost 9 years

Humor me here, it's only considered game throwing from either players standpoint because they don't gain anything from forcing a draw, right?

Loreli

almost 9 years

Hibiki says

pointless and your avatar is gross

Really all the hotfix will do is prevent people from trying to abuse the new rule. No one is actually going to force a draw.

Hibiki

almost 9 years

pointless and your avatar is gross