12p discourse290

Alyssa6mon 11d
+6
spaceApr 19, 2020
+1
Alyssa
Also time for a confession I think Cupid is an awful role that makes the game less fun and is why I didn't include it in Blurst
hot take: i agree.
it's all the worst things about angel, mistletoe, and lover smushed together.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
Okay fair, supervillain is ignored
filkoApr 19, 2020
+1
Keymaker is underwhelming but it should probably stay
spaceApr 19, 2020
Alyssa
2 years ago we asked Lucid to fix admirer so it becomes killer with no killer in the setup - Lucid said he came through on this. Is this bugged too?
we can do a test game to see if this was fixed
NimauApr 19, 2020
nocash
Alyssa
2 years ago we asked Lucid to fix admirer so it becomes killer with no killer in the setup - Lucid said he came through on this. Is this bugged too?
Last time I was admirer without a killer I just converted to killer n1.
Last time I rolled Admirer in 3p battle royale I did NOT become killer nor have I ever, for what it's worth.

Alyssa
Yeah and in a pool of about 20 roles it goes from 5% to 10% where every other role stays at 5%... not sure on that.
Assuming Admirer worked this is honestly fine. Killer is one of the weakest 3p roles but isn't really unfun to play as so it's a good role to be 'common'.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
+1
I think I may skip on admirer - double the chance of being killer in the setup or for like a .002% chance of having a killer/admirer isn't worth it when we literally have sidekick on its own as well
NimauApr 19, 2020
space
this makes no sense tho pal. they're very much infiltrating. more often than not mafia outs roles (sometimes they slip and out non-meeting partners) which makes it all the more fun to strategically plan out your kills. but even if they don't, it forces you to pay attention so you can match anything to the people in your night meeting. text patterns, if a maf has a role with a town equivalent and they claim that, you can use it. there's a lot of different strats you can use to try to win. mutineer is a lot of work to win but it's really fun for the exact reasons alyssa stated.
That would all be awesome if they were Usurper (assuming this role actually worked) and their goal was to identify the Mafia while remaining hidden. Instead they have this power while in every other way being a WORSE killer by nature of being unable to joint with Mafia, the primary way for Killer to win. Mutineer gains so little from actually identifying the Mafia because if they take out the Maf, they have a stacked town against them and if they don't, they have a target on them. Every single thing about this role is so frustrating and antithetical to what it feels like it is supposed to be.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
Angel, Monk, Warlock, Cultist, Thulu, Nomad, Survivor, Fool, Lover, Lyncher, Killer, Clockmaker, Mistletoe, Gambler, Prophet, Alien, Werewolf, Amn, Anarch, Sidekick, Maid and MM are all in the setup. That's 22 roles which gives each about a 4.5% chance, admirer brings that to a 4.3% chance which would be a 8.6% chance of rolling a role that becomes a killer.

As of now we have Killer, CM, Gambler, Anarch, MM and WW which are hostile 3rds that try to kill their way to the end of the game. Adding admirer would bring us from 6 hostile killing 3rds to 7 of the 22 roles, so basically it comes down to do we want killing 3rds to be more common or not
spaceApr 19, 2020
https://epicmafia.com/game/7433130

admirer insta converts so lucid fixed it
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
So this boils down to: Do we want 7 of 23 roles being killing 3rds, or 6 of 22 being killing 3rds?
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
Because the odds of killer/admirer are I believe only 1 in 1,000 which is NOT worth it esp with sidekick in the game which is compatible in every 3rd. This is about doubling the chance of killer basically.
NimauApr 19, 2020
+1
Alyssa Nomad suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

It's a guaranteed sanity cop that everyone outs as immediately despite doing so being harmful to their own wincon bc no one in sandbox cares enough to try to win as it.

It also has 0 voting power which is not in the role description which is a HUGE point of confusion for people.
filkoApr 19, 2020
+2
definitely do not add nomad
spaceApr 19, 2020
+1
Nimau
space
this makes no sense tho pal. they're very much infiltrating. more often than not mafia outs roles (sometimes they slip and out non-meeting partners) which makes it all the more fun to strategically plan out your kills. but even if they don't, it forces you to pay attention so you can match anything to the people in your night meeting. text patterns, if a maf has a role with a town equivalent and they claim that, you can use it. there's a lot of different strats you can use to try to win. mutineer is a lot of work to win but it's really fun for the exact reasons alyssa stated.
That would all be awesome if they were Usurper (assuming this role actually worked) and their goal was to identify the Mafia while remaining hidden. Instead they have this power while in every other way being a WORSE killer by nature of being unable to joint with Mafia, the primary way for Killer to win. Mutineer gains so little from actually identifying the Mafia because if they take out the Maf, they have a stacked town against them and if they don't, they have a target on them. Every single thing about this role is so frustrating and antithetical to what it feels like it is supposed to be.
Being a more complex killer does not mean being worse. You could argue CM is trash because you need to literally time your kills. Same with WW there will be nights where you can eat a town but can't because then mafia will win. You could have your last two town be nurse/jailkeep/tree/granny/priest/other roles that prevent you from eating.

Having to do more work for your kills to play to your wincon doesn't make it worse.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
Why isn't that in the description!? I swore it was before, weird. At least the role as suggested had that in it and is what lucid went off of. You can directly contact Wesai about updating it.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
I'm open to removing Nomad but it's not going to be based on the 0 voting power which is intended
spaceApr 19, 2020
I think admirer is fine. It's up to you truly. It seems only somewhat pointless to toss it in since it's an auto-convert except when killer is also present but it can make for fun games when both are present the same as it's fun when cm or ww has a sidekick. cm can kill more liberally without worrying about hitting the third and ww has an extra vote or free eat if necessary.
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
+1
Nomad's more of a politician that gets to choose their own route but I agree it's weak enough to not include, no voting power aside. It just gets pushed aside as a weaker role where survivor has more on the line with trying to hide behind users and just make it to the end, I see Nomad and Vivor with the same end-goal but just different processes
AlyssaApr 19, 2020
+3
If only admirer would admire any killing 3rd :pensive:
NimauApr 19, 2020
space
Being a more complex killer does not mean being worse. You could argue CM is trash because you need to literally time your kills. Same with WW there will be nights where you can eat a town but can't because then mafia will win. You could have your last two town be nurse/jailkeep/tree/granny/priest/other roles that prevent you from eating.

Having to do more work for your kills to play to your wincon doesn't make it worse.
It's not more complex it's just worse.

You don't need to time your kills as CM. As long as you don't hit the other 3p CM is a better Killer in every single way. It has a second wincon, it doesn't die to Mason, and it knows the alignment of whoever they kill regardless of suits.

You're giving examples of how other roles actually create fun and engaging gameplay which only further drives my point of the fact that Mutineer does not. Mutineer's wincon is "kill everyone" there is no clever decision making that comes with the role that doesn't also apply to other, actual fun to play as 3ps.